why not
You can always check a tune's genre before opening it up.
I think any pigeon-holing or segregation of genre should be done this way, where the posters attempt to describe the track themselves. Otherwise i'd be posting in the "Other Styles" forum quite a bit, along with many other folk.
I'm from a non-electronic instrument background,and the awesome talent and knowledge of electronic musicians posting on this forum can only be respected and learnt from, imho
Rock on regardless
I think any pigeon-holing or segregation of genre should be done this way, where the posters attempt to describe the track themselves. Otherwise i'd be posting in the "Other Styles" forum quite a bit, along with many other folk.
I'm from a non-electronic instrument background,and the awesome talent and knowledge of electronic musicians posting on this forum can only be respected and learnt from, imho
Rock on regardless
-
hubird
I would like to see more too as I only do live bands at this stage. It is always really interesting for me to see how others tackle room sound, mic positioning, adda convertors etc. For me, a persons recording ability can be judged by how well they can record a live drum kit! A huge challenge.On 2004-04-17 01:03, mikem wrote:
I wish when I go to the music page, there would be alot less samples and alot more music recorded by performers and mics and instruments, because thats what I do and would like to hear others, instead of hyped up samples and what not(no offense to anyone)
On the other hand I still have enormous respect for people on electronica side as well. With musical tastes from sepultura to sarah brightman I don't seem to have any one preferred form of music which can be a pain!On 2004-04-17 09:25, bassdude wrote:I would like to see more too as I only do live bands at this stage. It is always really interesting for me to see how others tackle room sound, mic positioning, adda convertors etc. For me, a persons recording ability can be judged by how well they can record a live drum kit! A huge challenge.On 2004-04-17 01:03, mikem wrote:
I wish when I go to the music page, there would be alot less samples and alot more music recorded by performers and mics and instruments, because thats what I do and would like to hear others, instead of hyped up samples and what not(no offense to anyone)
thanks for this post bass dude, its what i was trying to say to a tee...... i too have enormous respect for electronica, but like the challenges of 'live' instruments more
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kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
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- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
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interesting issue you're poking at here. "more music, and not samples" in other words says, "samples mixed together isn't really music", or more clearer, "music is only played by bands and live musicians". Quite an adventurous statement, I think, but nonetheless interesting to talk about. I'll start off by saying that there's no one right answer. Samples mixed together can be music, while music played by live performers or bands can sometimes be much less than what music was meant to be.
It's a tough issue to tackle.. Music relying strongly on samples can be broken down to several sub-genres depending on their character: non-playable music and music of finding. There's probably more, but I'm just going to talk about these 2 off the top of my head.
Non-playable music by my definition referes to clever usage of samples to create phrases and loops that is otherwise not implementable by physical means. This could also be understood as music that a normal "live player" would not play. Music relying on loops would be one, but also music relying on effects processing would be another. Imagine randome granular processing. Would a "live player" think of playing in such a way without the knowledge of granular processing? probably not. It portrays new possibilities of music, and therefore, I think it rightfully earns a place to be called proper "music".
The other, "music of finding" is a bit more culture orientated. For example, the intro drum phrase from James Brown's "funky drummer" has been used over and over.. the guy who decided to use it first earns his rights, because he "found" the phrase, and found musical importance in it. On the other hand, many use phrases from famous funk bands (because they're well known) or perhaps lesser known underground bands (because they're underground) for cultural importance. Either way, the importance is in locating the sample, knowing its cultural importance, and using it as a political statement to the mass by snagging a part of its tune as a sample. This is a very logical way of making a musical statement, although quite political, and so I think it rightfully earns its status as proper music.
Then there's music coming from bands and live performers. The music created by these people certainly have their stregths. Performance dynamism, expression, technique, etc. Certainly, players with lots of experience have its place over what a seasoned MIDI programmer can create. But is this music, and sample performed not music? Is there a line between them that makes one "music", and the other not? It's a tough call to make.
So what is music? That's the question to ask. What elements makes something music, and the other not? There's no specific answer, and I think eveyone has his own take on this issue. It's a good thing, because it part of what creates our music identity. But if you draw the line and say "live stuff is music, and digital samples is not", then, in my opinion, you'd have shut yourself out from quite alot of musical possibilities.
I must add though, to comment on the "guy who can properly record a drum set" issue... that I have total respect for someone who can do so. I've never had the luxury of sampling a live drum player.. let alone, a live player for most well known instruments. So most times, sampled instruments is all I have to turn to. Sometimes, sampled stuff is the only choice.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2004-04-17 13:31 ]</font>
It's a tough issue to tackle.. Music relying strongly on samples can be broken down to several sub-genres depending on their character: non-playable music and music of finding. There's probably more, but I'm just going to talk about these 2 off the top of my head.
Non-playable music by my definition referes to clever usage of samples to create phrases and loops that is otherwise not implementable by physical means. This could also be understood as music that a normal "live player" would not play. Music relying on loops would be one, but also music relying on effects processing would be another. Imagine randome granular processing. Would a "live player" think of playing in such a way without the knowledge of granular processing? probably not. It portrays new possibilities of music, and therefore, I think it rightfully earns a place to be called proper "music".
The other, "music of finding" is a bit more culture orientated. For example, the intro drum phrase from James Brown's "funky drummer" has been used over and over.. the guy who decided to use it first earns his rights, because he "found" the phrase, and found musical importance in it. On the other hand, many use phrases from famous funk bands (because they're well known) or perhaps lesser known underground bands (because they're underground) for cultural importance. Either way, the importance is in locating the sample, knowing its cultural importance, and using it as a political statement to the mass by snagging a part of its tune as a sample. This is a very logical way of making a musical statement, although quite political, and so I think it rightfully earns its status as proper music.
Then there's music coming from bands and live performers. The music created by these people certainly have their stregths. Performance dynamism, expression, technique, etc. Certainly, players with lots of experience have its place over what a seasoned MIDI programmer can create. But is this music, and sample performed not music? Is there a line between them that makes one "music", and the other not? It's a tough call to make.
So what is music? That's the question to ask. What elements makes something music, and the other not? There's no specific answer, and I think eveyone has his own take on this issue. It's a good thing, because it part of what creates our music identity. But if you draw the line and say "live stuff is music, and digital samples is not", then, in my opinion, you'd have shut yourself out from quite alot of musical possibilities.
I must add though, to comment on the "guy who can properly record a drum set" issue... that I have total respect for someone who can do so. I've never had the luxury of sampling a live drum player.. let alone, a live player for most well known instruments. So most times, sampled instruments is all I have to turn to. Sometimes, sampled stuff is the only choice.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2004-04-17 13:31 ]</font>
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Nestor
- Posts: 6688
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
I would turn it upside down, just to explain myself. Instead of thinking about what it may or it may not be, I think straightforward about what I like. I like above all, played instruments and I’m totally into it. I kill myself studding a part till it goes well and I can record it. Sometimes I take two or three days to learn a part before getting to record it, sometimes it takes me several months till I can play it well, with expression and at full length.
Why do I do such an effort when apparently there are samples to play what I want to play to do my music? Here there are a few very important reasons for me:
1 – Because in fact, there are NOT those samples I am looking for, except if I do them myself for the occasion, which would be ridiculous cos that would be is in fact, performing the whole song anyway, myself… he he…
2 – Because nothing will sound as I want it exactly to sound in terms of timber and other central components of a sound.
3 – Because there is an extreme pleasure, immense, endless joy of expressing yourself from the very bottom, while with samples I would have to feel 2 or 3% of this joy because I would play something which is not directly coming from within myself.
4 – Because there are innumerable facts that are “SPONTANEOUS” that will never arise through samples, due, precisely, to the reason that samples are “already made things”, while playing instruments is like surfing onto a wave in the ocean, without knowing what is going to happen in the following second, you may follow, you may fall, you may come up to an island or be eaten by a shark. (This is particularly important to my music, which is mainly Fusion and related. Nevertheless, whatever kind of music I do, I will always have some improvised bit and this is not possible with samples)
5 – Because there is something magical happening to the final master which makes it more valuable, when working hard for playing everything yourself, that doesn’t exist in the sample-world-related-music. It’s sort of an “energy”, yes a special ENERGY none existent in sample-based-music. It is inherent to what is going on, you cannot see it, you cannot handle it in any visible or evident way, but there is something different, a hidden energy you can feel, and it is much humanized than sample-based-music. This special energy makes you to come back once and over again to listen to the same piece of music.
6 – By all means, serious instrument players have been much more in touch with music than non players. A player has to study music theory, have to pass many thousands of hours going slowly through hundreds of scores from different stiles and periods and nations of our world, and this opens your mind to the language of music in a particularly deep way; there are no substitutes for this. In terms of development and musical knowledge, the non player would be like a nurse in regard to a doctor, being the doctor the player.
These are basically, the main advantages of playing music yourself, without playing samples. There are many others that due to time, I cannot keep going, but there are many other of minor importance as well.
6- It is artistically more powerful due to its endless possibilities of expression, which you cannot in any way add to sample-based-music.
In regard to Sample-Based-Music:
I think that you can achieve things that you would never be able to achieve playing, just because it is a completely different approach to music creation. These are the advantages I think this music has:
1 – You can do music fast.
2 – If you don’t have inspiration, you can find some from the samples.
3 – You don’t need to pass your life studying hard to do some music (despite the fact the quality in terms of art, will never be comparable to played music)
4 – You’ll find ideas, sounds and combinations that would be totally impossible to find otherwise, without samples.
5 – It is MUCH cheaper and needs MUCH less recourses than playing yourself. Just think about the price of a good string set for bass. (I’m not even referring to 6 strings but 4)
6 - There are samples everywhere, and there will be much, much more in the near future as it has become the easiest way of making music ever.
I personally prefer real players of course; I don’t even need to think about it. Nevertheless, I like very much the union of both worlds as together they give me all I cannot afford. If I were to choose without restrictions, I would for sure get about 60 musicians to play my compositions with me, that would be perfection, but as it is impossible I use samples and play along with them. But I don’t just play samples because I don’t have a bunch of musicians to play for me, but because I like them very much.
Why do I do such an effort when apparently there are samples to play what I want to play to do my music? Here there are a few very important reasons for me:
1 – Because in fact, there are NOT those samples I am looking for, except if I do them myself for the occasion, which would be ridiculous cos that would be is in fact, performing the whole song anyway, myself… he he…
2 – Because nothing will sound as I want it exactly to sound in terms of timber and other central components of a sound.
3 – Because there is an extreme pleasure, immense, endless joy of expressing yourself from the very bottom, while with samples I would have to feel 2 or 3% of this joy because I would play something which is not directly coming from within myself.
4 – Because there are innumerable facts that are “SPONTANEOUS” that will never arise through samples, due, precisely, to the reason that samples are “already made things”, while playing instruments is like surfing onto a wave in the ocean, without knowing what is going to happen in the following second, you may follow, you may fall, you may come up to an island or be eaten by a shark. (This is particularly important to my music, which is mainly Fusion and related. Nevertheless, whatever kind of music I do, I will always have some improvised bit and this is not possible with samples)
5 – Because there is something magical happening to the final master which makes it more valuable, when working hard for playing everything yourself, that doesn’t exist in the sample-world-related-music. It’s sort of an “energy”, yes a special ENERGY none existent in sample-based-music. It is inherent to what is going on, you cannot see it, you cannot handle it in any visible or evident way, but there is something different, a hidden energy you can feel, and it is much humanized than sample-based-music. This special energy makes you to come back once and over again to listen to the same piece of music.
6 – By all means, serious instrument players have been much more in touch with music than non players. A player has to study music theory, have to pass many thousands of hours going slowly through hundreds of scores from different stiles and periods and nations of our world, and this opens your mind to the language of music in a particularly deep way; there are no substitutes for this. In terms of development and musical knowledge, the non player would be like a nurse in regard to a doctor, being the doctor the player.
These are basically, the main advantages of playing music yourself, without playing samples. There are many others that due to time, I cannot keep going, but there are many other of minor importance as well.
6- It is artistically more powerful due to its endless possibilities of expression, which you cannot in any way add to sample-based-music.
In regard to Sample-Based-Music:
I think that you can achieve things that you would never be able to achieve playing, just because it is a completely different approach to music creation. These are the advantages I think this music has:
1 – You can do music fast.
2 – If you don’t have inspiration, you can find some from the samples.
3 – You don’t need to pass your life studying hard to do some music (despite the fact the quality in terms of art, will never be comparable to played music)
4 – You’ll find ideas, sounds and combinations that would be totally impossible to find otherwise, without samples.
5 – It is MUCH cheaper and needs MUCH less recourses than playing yourself. Just think about the price of a good string set for bass. (I’m not even referring to 6 strings but 4)
6 - There are samples everywhere, and there will be much, much more in the near future as it has become the easiest way of making music ever.
I personally prefer real players of course; I don’t even need to think about it. Nevertheless, I like very much the union of both worlds as together they give me all I cannot afford. If I were to choose without restrictions, I would for sure get about 60 musicians to play my compositions with me, that would be perfection, but as it is impossible I use samples and play along with them. But I don’t just play samples because I don’t have a bunch of musicians to play for me, but because I like them very much.
An interesting post that can lead to several different ways to look and think about music meaning, prodution, playing, composing, etc...
I understand and can accept the suggestion about a samples folder but I really don't agree with it.
Are there any music shop with sections for sampled and not sampled records?
And isn't this a place either for Pro (those don't need it tho...) but also for hobbyists (as myself) that are just trying to learn and ask from better opinions?
btw, sampled instruments and loops seems to be tools and IMO just some new different ways to aproach music creation. Do you think it's easier to simulate a good line of a real instrument (or an ensemble) with midi sequencing than a musician playing it with a partition in front and reproducing it as it's written? (not comparable anyway, I think).
And all those whose can never got an instrument (money and place to practice may be hard to get too) and can now run a software based studio, self learning manytimes, deserve not same recognition?
It would be great I could rec a real drum set in my living room...
(I should have kept with my soundblaster...) and when I'd want "Music for Airports" just listen to "Bang on a Can" version.
I understand and can accept the suggestion about a samples folder but I really don't agree with it.
Are there any music shop with sections for sampled and not sampled records?
And isn't this a place either for Pro (those don't need it tho...) but also for hobbyists (as myself) that are just trying to learn and ask from better opinions?
btw, sampled instruments and loops seems to be tools and IMO just some new different ways to aproach music creation. Do you think it's easier to simulate a good line of a real instrument (or an ensemble) with midi sequencing than a musician playing it with a partition in front and reproducing it as it's written? (not comparable anyway, I think).
And all those whose can never got an instrument (money and place to practice may be hard to get too) and can now run a software based studio, self learning manytimes, deserve not same recognition?
It would be great I could rec a real drum set in my living room...
(I should have kept with my soundblaster...) and when I'd want "Music for Airports" just listen to "Bang on a Can" version.
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hubird
@ Mikem:
you can't combine these words:
...instead of hyped up samples and what not
and
(no offense to anyone)
I can read between the lines, and also IN the lines
you're free to post every style of music you want, but don't gimme the suggestion of the thought you're presenting the real music.
Do a search here, I've got lotsa things to say about the played 'contra' the sequences/sample based music making styles (like otherones do also).
You're a newbe here, so you can't know, but don't push it too hard, or I will get you
(now start making a very sensitive blues song about a lost love, and post it in the same forum as we all do
)
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-04-17 19:24 ]</font>
you can't combine these words:
...instead of hyped up samples and what not
and
(no offense to anyone)
I can read between the lines, and also IN the lines
you're free to post every style of music you want, but don't gimme the suggestion of the thought you're presenting the real music.
Do a search here, I've got lotsa things to say about the played 'contra' the sequences/sample based music making styles (like otherones do also).
You're a newbe here, so you can't know, but don't push it too hard, or I will get you
(now start making a very sensitive blues song about a lost love, and post it in the same forum as we all do
)_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-04-17 19:24 ]</font>
it was actually the use of her sampled voice on Etienne de Crécy's Tempovision that brought my attention to singer Esther Phillips
Btw that record is completely sample based and it's maker is 'proud to play keyboard with one finger...', yet I find it extremely musical and emotionally touching.
cheers, Tom
Btw that record is completely sample based and it's maker is 'proud to play keyboard with one finger...', yet I find it extremely musical and emotionally touching.
cheers, Tom
[quote]
On 2004-04-17 19:23, hubird wrote:
@ Mikem:
you can't combine these words:
...instead of hyped up samples and what not
and
(no offense to anyone)
I can read between the lines, and also IN the lines
I think you are making up lines and then reading them to yourself in your head. Yes i am new to this forum, but thats says absolutely nothing about my experience with audio production and mixing. Face it, those samples were synthesized, or recorded and engineered by someone other than you, and alot of them go through eq, compression and excititaion and maximizing to acheive their 'ear candy' qualities. Id rather learn the art of engineering anything i record into ear candy.
This CW stuff is new as far as audio products go, and still has yet to be proven i think, so i am experimenting with it myself and trying to decide if it is good for taditional studio applications(sonic, technical, and ergonomic considerations). And im interested mostly in music that has been recorded live in a way that i might compare it to my own (sample free music)to see the possibilies and varieties through creamware. Considering the amount of samplers and soft synths developed by creamware themsevles, it seems that is the primary use for it, so i am hoping alot of music without samples using creamware arises so the benefits of its intrernal processing and usefulness become apparent
On 2004-04-17 19:23, hubird wrote:
@ Mikem:
you can't combine these words:
...instead of hyped up samples and what not
and
(no offense to anyone)
I can read between the lines, and also IN the lines
I think you are making up lines and then reading them to yourself in your head. Yes i am new to this forum, but thats says absolutely nothing about my experience with audio production and mixing. Face it, those samples were synthesized, or recorded and engineered by someone other than you, and alot of them go through eq, compression and excititaion and maximizing to acheive their 'ear candy' qualities. Id rather learn the art of engineering anything i record into ear candy.
This CW stuff is new as far as audio products go, and still has yet to be proven i think, so i am experimenting with it myself and trying to decide if it is good for taditional studio applications(sonic, technical, and ergonomic considerations). And im interested mostly in music that has been recorded live in a way that i might compare it to my own (sample free music)to see the possibilies and varieties through creamware. Considering the amount of samplers and soft synths developed by creamware themsevles, it seems that is the primary use for it, so i am hoping alot of music without samples using creamware arises so the benefits of its intrernal processing and usefulness become apparent
Mikem, I can see what you're getting at, that you want to learn "the art". That's fine, but others want to have "the result".
I'm sure no one has any problems with either path. In an ideal world we all might have time to learn the violin, guitar, mastering, singing, live mixing, lighting, music law and video proudction.
The only problem here I think is the implication of what you're saying, that samples are "ear candy" (as you called them) and are somehow less legitimate musically than the established method of recording instruments.
That attitude is very common and is heard throughout all areas of business or art when a new method challenges the old ways. The traditionalists feel threatened and so try to attack the credibility or worth of the new way.
But there's room for everything in art.
Looking forward to hearing some of your work
I'm sure no one has any problems with either path. In an ideal world we all might have time to learn the violin, guitar, mastering, singing, live mixing, lighting, music law and video proudction.
The only problem here I think is the implication of what you're saying, that samples are "ear candy" (as you called them) and are somehow less legitimate musically than the established method of recording instruments.
That attitude is very common and is heard throughout all areas of business or art when a new method challenges the old ways. The traditionalists feel threatened and so try to attack the credibility or worth of the new way.
But there's room for everything in art.
Looking forward to hearing some of your work
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AudioIrony
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Mood Ring Umbrella Satchel
well, why not more 'real music'? is it because CW cards are not suited for the job? nah, of course they are. but you gotta see that most of the people that use our beloved cards for 'non-electronic' music are recording engineers, and the music they're working with is not theirs to just put it up here.
you gotta dig a bit deeper into the music forum. there's lots of good 'real music'. scope cards are truly 'multiple use cards'. just go the cw site and read the eddy king interview. listen to wayne's songs here on Z, and many others, like gary's reggae, legros' fantastic songs, marcus pocus, maket's happy dities...
can't help to notice you have some snobbish attitude here though. what makes you think every electronic type of music is just a collection of pre made samples, offered by real musicians? and what if...? if folks have fun creating music, and the audience is listening and liking it, does it matter one bit?
musical taste is soooo subjective. no need to diss one style or the other. all have their value. you just might like one better than the other.
doing both, btw (accoustic and electronic). at the moment i'm working for/with a classical composer. you might think these guys wouldn't have a single look at computers...wrongwrongwrong. this guy is a gifted pianist/composer... and a max/msp guru, freaking out on cuppers ran through incredible modular patches, accompanied by electronic noises... 'academic', but open to the new technologies.
you gotta dig a bit deeper into the music forum. there's lots of good 'real music'. scope cards are truly 'multiple use cards'. just go the cw site and read the eddy king interview. listen to wayne's songs here on Z, and many others, like gary's reggae, legros' fantastic songs, marcus pocus, maket's happy dities...
can't help to notice you have some snobbish attitude here though. what makes you think every electronic type of music is just a collection of pre made samples, offered by real musicians? and what if...? if folks have fun creating music, and the audience is listening and liking it, does it matter one bit?
musical taste is soooo subjective. no need to diss one style or the other. all have their value. you just might like one better than the other.
doing both, btw (accoustic and electronic). at the moment i'm working for/with a classical composer. you might think these guys wouldn't have a single look at computers...wrongwrongwrong. this guy is a gifted pianist/composer... and a max/msp guru, freaking out on cuppers ran through incredible modular patches, accompanied by electronic noises... 'academic', but open to the new technologies.
andy
the lunatics are in the hall
the lunatics are in the hall
many high end audio applications use the same DSPs and Fairlight as an OEM applies the boards (and software) in their mixing consoles.On 2004-04-17 22:20, mikem wrote:
...This CW stuff is new as far as audio products go, and still has yet to be proven i think,...
...that has been recorded live in a way that i might compare it to my own (sample free music)to see the possibilies and varieties through creamware. ...
your second statemnet bears a problem by definition:
the result will mostly reflect the quality of your outboard gear, mics, pres etc.
A matter of fact that only a minority can afford world class stuff in that area.
Yet I'm not the one to insist on 'that' perfect sound. I found myself annoyed frequently by perfect productions, but that's another story.
cheers, Tom
Tom,
Thanks for the info about the Fairlight using the dsp's and software, cool stuff.
Its hard to post things sometimes without them turning into flame bait i guess. i just posted originally after frustration from searching through all the music genres and looking for live musician songs. I just took it 'there' after many people looked at my statement 'no offense to anyone', as 'take everything with offense'anyway, thanks for the posts, (and this great forum!)
Thanks for the info about the Fairlight using the dsp's and software, cool stuff.
Its hard to post things sometimes without them turning into flame bait i guess. i just posted originally after frustration from searching through all the music genres and looking for live musician songs. I just took it 'there' after many people looked at my statement 'no offense to anyone', as 'take everything with offense'anyway, thanks for the posts, (and this great forum!)