Making a hoover patch

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 4:16 am

I've tried various modulations of pitch and pulse width with LFOs modulating LFOs but can't seem to get there. Any suggestions?

Some notes on hoover/mentasm synthesis which might help:

Use a pulse wave and modulate the pulse-width heavily with a very fast sine/triangle LFO - That's it!
For some reason it only really sounds right on Alpha Junos... I think maybe the alpha junos let you use PWM on saw tooth waves aswell - This may be something to do with it... I've got the JunoX VST kicking around somewhere, those hoover noises are the only things that sound remotely Juno in it!
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The best LFO PWM wave to use would be a triangle wave, as that is the only LFO waveform available on the Alpha Junos. When used as a modulator a sine wave can sound quite different, and you will notice.
That might still not sound quite right though, as the Alphas also let you use PWM to modulate the width of two gaps in a sawtooth wave, and that might have been the technique used in the sound you have in mind. Unfortunately I'm not sure how this could be recreated in a modern soft/VA synth, although my best guess is that it would involve amplitude modulating a sawtooth wave with a pulse wave one octave higher, then modulating the width of the pulse with an LFO.
Does anyone know exactly which preset inspired the hoover sound?
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The preset in the alpha Juno's called "What The...!" - Yeah I've got myself a Juno now - My 106 can do the Hoover noises but there definetly is something a little different to the alpha Juno's Hoover sounds - Basically, the Juno's LFO can go very fast and the PWM is much wider than on most other synths - The Hoover sound is a Pulse Wave with fast and quite wide PWM, played along side a Square Wave Sub-Oscillator 1 Octave Lower - Both going through a pretty open Low Pass filter - Not really much to it..
I think it's just one of those sounds that only a Juno can do properly - I can't get it on any other synth I've used - At least not as authentic sounding...
Everyone needs a Juno - MKS-50's and alpha Junos are absolute bargains at the moment! They won't be for ever - I can see their 2nd hand value going through the roof unless someone comes up with a decent new analogue polysynth or two in the future. The plug-in Juno is good for the Hoover sounds but rubbish at just about everything else - Can't even touch the Juno's awesome pad sounds let alone the bass.

wavelength · Post by **wavelength** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:02 am

well, it's not for the modular, but it just so happens that the very first preset on my new OP-8 synth is a "hoover" patch. here is a rough noodle i just played into Wavelab (with some chorus):

http://www.track0.com/wavelength/MP3s/op8hoover.mp3

pretty close?

i'll be releasing it pretty quick, you can check a screenshot here:

http://www.track0.com/wavelength/devices.html

cheers,

Stephen

(sorry for the non-modular OT posting

)

[ This Message was edited by: wavelength on 2004-04-02 08:05 ]

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:21 am

That's definitely a whole heap closer than I got mate.

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 10:00 am

PWM on saw tooth waves

I don't understand this...how can you pulse-width modulate a saw tooth wave?

Crazy sounds, Wavelength, but sounds nothing like my hoover:

Royston

p.s. hi rounser!

valis · Post by **valis** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 12:08 pm

Incidentally these terms have been used so much that they're diluted, but a purist would say:

Hoover = pwm square wav

Mentasm = hoover sample lifted directly from Joey Beltram's "Mentasm" track

Reece = 2 Saw wav samples or patches detuned from each other with modulation or automation (4 osc synth would also work with a good enough mod matrix).

at least this is what I'm familiar with...

wavelength · Post by **wavelength** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:11 pm

mine is made with a pwm pulsewave and unison stack, with some envelope pitch mod, if anyone is interested. you'll be able to see the patch once i release the synth, it's not that comlpex, just a bit fiddly to get things sounding right on the pwm.

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Fri Apr 02, 2004 9:28 pm

I don't understand this...how can you pulse-width modulate a saw tooth wave?

The UKnow oscillator lets you pulse-width modulate a sawtooth. Presumably it's modulating the length between the sawtooth vertical bits.

Incidentally these terms have been used so much that they're diluted, but a purist would say:

Hoover = pwm square wav

Mentasm = hoover sample lifted directly from Joey Beltram's "Mentasm" track

Reece = 2 Saw wav samples or patches detuned from each other with modulation or automation (4 osc synth would also work with a good enough mod matrix).

at least this is what I'm familiar with...

You certainly seem to know your ravey dance music onions there. I can't think of too many other "named" sounds other than those, although the "vamp" from Outlander - Vamp is one..."warp bass" arguably another.

mine is made with a pwm pulsewave and unison stack, with some envelope pitch mod, if anyone is interested. you'll be able to see the patch once i release the synth, it's not that comlpex, just a bit fiddly to get things sounding right on the pwm.

Ah, clever of you - never thought of stacking up some other oscillators doing unison. Thanks for the tip, and will check out your synth on release.

[ This Message was edited by: rounser on 2004-04-02 21:33 ]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:59 am

cool. I didn't know these sounds had concrete names with concrete definitions. Great addition to my music vocab. Any more off the top of your head?

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:19 am

rounser wrote:

I don't understand this...how can you pulse-width modulate a saw tooth wave?
The UKnow oscillator lets you pulse-width modulate a sawtooth. Presumably it's modulating the length between the sawtooth vertical bits.

[fx: draws picture]

But that just changes the frequency, unless alternate cycles are lengthened and shortened, such that the time taken for two cycles remains constant?

Royston

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:25 am

But that just changes the frequency, unless alternate cycles are lengthened and shortened, such that the time taken for two cycles remains constant?

The alternate cycles are indeed lengthened and shortened as far as I know. In fact, the whole basis of why the hoover sounds so rich and phat is that it seems to be altering pitch back and forth at a rate faster than your brain can track...

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:41 am

re:PWM on saw tooth waves - how can you pulse-width modulate a saw tooth wave?

Have you tried Flexor's Saw to PWM to PWM a saw, or Hard PWM for anything else except pulse osc, on which AFAIK Phase Modulation works.

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 3:41 am

rounser,

That makes sense, ta!

at0mic,

No I haven't! One of ten billions things I still haven't got round to...

Royston

p.s. I'm seriously considering sampling my hoover now...

scary808 · Post by **scary808** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:30 am

On 2004-04-02 21:28, rounser wrote:
I don't understand this...how can you pulse-width modulate a saw tooth wave?
The UKnow oscillator lets you pulse-width modulate a sawtooth. Presumably it's modulating the length between the sawtooth vertical bits.
Incidentally these terms have been used so much that they're diluted, but a purist would say:

Hoover = pwm square wav

Mentasm = hoover sample lifted directly from Joey Beltram's "Mentasm" track

Reece = 2 Saw wav samples or patches detuned from each other with modulation or automation (4 osc synth would also work with a good enough mod matrix).

at least this is what I'm familiar with...
You certainly seem to know your ravey dance music onions there. I can't think of too many other "named" sounds other than those, although the "vamp" from Outlander - Vamp is one..."warp bass" arguably another.
mine is made with a pwm pulsewave and unison stack, with some envelope pitch mod, if anyone is interested. you'll be able to see the patch once i release the synth, it's not that comlpex, just a bit fiddly to get things sounding right on the pwm.
Ah, clever of you - never thought of stacking up some other oscillators doing unison. Thanks for the tip, and will check out your synth on release.

[ This Message was edited by: rounser on 2004-04-02 21:33 ]

Hey there! This subject is very cool! I've been thinking of putting together an Old Skool UK hardcore track so this has been very helpful. One sound I'm clueless as to how to achieve is THAT sound in 2 Bad Mice's "Bombscare". I think it may be a Casio CZ101 but i'm not sure.

Maybe after you achieve some of these classic sounds, you could educate some of us in Ravey sound jargon by posting some examples in the music section. Thanks for the knowledge!

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:46 am

Scary,

Yes that sound is EXACTLY from a CZ101, I have a the little synth and it pretyt much sucks aside from two sounds, 1. the cheap organ that was used a zillion times, and 2. a neat flangin sync that duran duran killed over and over in that song, save a prayer if that was its name, the opening synth.

Now as far as the Hoover/Mantasm sound, I couldnt figure out how to make on myself in modular, but I can tell you its origin

Roland Juno Alpha(2) that is the number of the beast, and let me just say, when you the Portamento & Chord Memory down at the same time they both light up and there you have it, old school mayday style hoover sounds on a patch called "What the!" I wonder what the last word roland was thinking of when they created that patch

Cheers!

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 7:02 am

Hey there! This subject is very cool! I've been thinking of putting together an Old Skool UK hardcore track so this has been very helpful. One sound I'm clueless as to how to achieve is THAT sound in 2 Bad Mice's "Bombscare". I think it may be a Casio CZ101 but i'm not sure.

Maybe after you achieve some of these classic sounds, you could educate some of us in Ravey sound jargon by posting some examples in the music section. Thanks for the knowledge!

The thing about the ravier sounds, apart from the hoover, is that with few exceptions, they're not generated from synths at all...the definitive ones (including Bombscare) are mostly all samples.

The oldskool producers did it by finding any old non-dance music track where a chunky chord or some harmonic crescendo is being held for a bit, sampling that bit and either looping it seamlessly or putting a volume envelope around it. I've got little doubt that the Bombscare sound was made this way, because I've sampled and processed a whole heap of sounds like it from random music.

The big inconvenience with sampling stabs in this way (and the reason most people don't do it) is that they're usually too short to use when pitched up and down in a sampler when being used in a riff, and it's a real pain to find loop points that don't click to get around this problem (assuming they exist for a given sample).

(I've figured out a very convenient and quick way around these problems which lets me make these in seconds...but think I'll keep it under my hat for the moment...at least until I've put a track together!)

EDIT: It _is_ a CZ101 then? Okay, I stand corrected! Nevertheless, trust me when I say you can most oldskool sounds using the technique outlined above, and I've come close to bombscare...here's a version of the original bombscare stab, extended to about a 10 second length tone:
http://rounser.customer.netspace.net.au ... reStab.wav
...and here's an original stab lead of mine, one of eight made from a single track (a James Bond theme):
http://rounser.customer.netspace.net.au ... llStab.wav

[ This Message was edited by: rounser on 2004-04-11 09:47 ]

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:40 pm

Greetings all,

Well I decided ti postr a small audio snippet of the CZ101 and a Hoover patch from the Juno Alpha 2, the CZ I recreated bombscare and on the hoover I dunno, just played what felt like 1992 to me lol..

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=17&0

Enjoy!

scary808 · Post by **scary808** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:39 pm

Oh my hell!! Thats too perfect man! So you have a CZ101? I need to find a way to recreate that sound. I've been reading up on phase distortion synthesis. Heres a cool link:

http://www.neueraeume.net/casio/cosmosynths.html

1992 will live FOREVER!

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:58 pm

Basic Pitch, lovely! Nice hoovering.

And I've never heard the Bombscare organ that squeaky clean before...(what genre(s) do you produce? You must have quite a synth collection lying around to be able to do requests like that...)

This is going out on a limb to ask of you, but would it be possible for you to generate a multisample of a hoover patch from your Juno?

Because of the nature of the patch, I can't just fake it by pitching a single tone, and I've found it can't be looped, and, strangely, there doesn't seem to be a hoover multisample anywhere on the net...

[ This Message was edited by: rounser on 2004-04-11 22:59 ]

[ This Message was edited by: rounser on 2004-04-11 23:46 ]

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:05 am

Rounser,

I do mostly electronic music, hardhouse, breaks etc etc, I dabble in the occasional acid track from time to time, though my synth collection is not what it was a few months ago as I have started selling off some of my hardware synths and samplers, just too much in the way of wires and clutter, and these days alot of the real early classics are easily reproduced though with a new twist.

Ill see what I can come up with as far as a multi-sample of the hoover patch, if I cant get the time to do it, Ill just post a scale or 2 or maybe every C arrcoss the keys, with sustained lenths of the notes.

Funny enough, as a joke I was going to find that old "twilight zone" vocal hit " Whooooo! " the one that was used to death and available as a stock roland sample and throw it into the hoover patch at the end lol.

Cheers!

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:22 am

I do mostly electronic music, hardhouse, breaks etc etc, I dabble in the occasional acid track from time to time, though my synth collection is not what it was a few months ago as I have started selling off some of my hardware synths and samplers, just too much in the way of wires and clutter, and these days alot of the real early classics are easily reproduced though with a new twist.

Oh aye. How do you think the creamware synths stand up to your hardware? I had no point of reference until I found this site:
http://homepage.sunrise.ch/mysunrise/gekko.ch/riddle/
...and was surprised to discover, blind test even, that the creamware sounded better than most of the hardware there. Given that you've probably got both at hand, I'd be interested in your 2 cents.

Ill see what I can come up with as far as a multi-sample of the hoover patch, if I cant get the time to do it, Ill just post a scale or 2 or maybe every C arrcoss the keys, with sustained lenths of the notes.

I realise it's a fairly big ask from someone you don't know, so I'll completely understand if you're a bit stuck for time.

Funny enough, as a joke I was going to find that old "twilight zone" vocal hit " Whooooo! " the one that was used to death and available as a stock roland sample and throw it into the hoover patch at the end lol.

And a pitched up break with chipmunked James Brown going "too bad!" in it, and an orchestral hit, and a cheesey Korg M1 piano chord progression, and an amen mashup, and a 909 kick, and an 808 cowbell, and a "Let's go!" vocal sample, and a "Cut the midrange, drop the bass!" vocal sample, and some squelchy Minimoog bass, and a TB303 acid line, and and and...