great piano samples

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 3:50 am

every since I started to use Kontakt, the world of hd streamed multi gigabyte libraries has opened up before me. Why did I get Kontakt? Because I just won a monthly drawing and won myself PMI bosendorfer 290, PMI Yamaha C7, PMI Steinway D, Scarbee Rhodes, and Scarbee Wurlitzers.

Anyhow, in testing out how they sounded, I find PMI's pianos to be of exceptional quality. All the 256 mb or 512 mb samples don't come CLOSE to how the PMI's pianos sound. Especially the Bosendorfer. I guess Bosendorfer itself already sound magnificent. The guys a PMI sure did a good job capturing it. One feature that surprised me that all of PMI's pianos have a "realtime sustain" variation where stepping on the sustain pedal switches between pedal up and down samples. So, when you step on the pedal, you get that rich sound of a real sustain.

Well, to cut the blabbering short, if you need ULTIMATE piano sounds, go for PMI bosendorfer 290. (24 bit version) It's the best I've heard in my 25 years.

The Scarbee ones were marginal. Better than any synth for sure, but I already have Nord Electro and the Scarbee ones sound almost identical to the Nord Electro ones. I guess there's only so many different ways to sample the same instrument. In the end, they all start to sound the same.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2004-02-19 03:54 ]

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 2:18 pm

I'll be waiting for a litte demo song of yourse Ken, to see how this sounds...

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:21 pm

I'll look into that. I was going to buy Gigastudio 3, Orchestra edition which comes with a massive piano (bigger than the previous Gigapiano I think). I wonder how this compairs to that? I like the idea of separate sustain samples however. I tend to go heavy on the sustain.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:22 pm

I did a little research and discovered the
PMI Bosendorfer piano is available as a stand alone plugin which uses the Kontakt engine and is only $200 at soundsonline.com. I'm going for it!

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/det ... sku=EW-157

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:31 pm

Brain, if you are in a budget, check this out, it may come handy:

http://www.wstco.net/pianosounds/Comparison.htm

Leasten to the natural and fake pianos, and you'll understand the sound is prety amazing, and the price too.

[ This Message was edited by: nestor on 2004-02-23 13:16 ]

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Sun Feb 22, 2004 12:53 pm

Ken, I can nothing but agree!
I have 16-bit GigaStudio version and it sounds SO GOOD... it sounds better than an average upright piano! (Isn't surprise, it's supposed to sound as good as a BD grand piano

)

I can only imagine how good a 24-bit version could sound...

Oh, almost forgot to say, remember to have a GOOD keyboard if you wish to enjoy the sound of this... With my Alesis QS8 connected to this baby, I can almost imagine to play The Real Thing. I tried it with a normal synth, it sucked

[ This Message was edited by: spoimala on 2004-02-22 12:55 ]

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 6:29 am

How do the "Splended Grand" piano samples compare?

http://www.soundcreationsinc.com/splendid/index.html

Royston

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 9:07 am

as long as they don't implement proper sympathetic string resonance all mega-giga-supa pianos s*ck and don't even come close to 'a Real Thing'

All that realism in the single note is in vain when the instrument sounds completely unnatural. The difference is more obvious than a cheapo Chinese mic against a Neumann.

Yeah, not my first rant in this direction, but my GEM piano died, so I could use some replacement

cheers, Tom

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:24 am

astroman wrote:

as long as they don't implement proper sympathetic string resonance all mega-giga-supa pianos s*ck and don't even come close to 'a Real Thing'

Q - is that something that needs "implementing"? I'd have thought good miking was the key to acheiving this? [dunno factor 10]

All that realism in the single note is in vain when the instrument sounds completely unnatural. The difference is more obvious than a cheapo Chinese mic against a Neumann.

Are you a pianist by any chance? I have a similar-ish point of view regarding guitar samples/synth patches. I wouldn't go near one if you paid me. If somebody gave me "Six String" for example, it'd just gather dust until I sold it for a fiver at a car boot sale

There's just no way I can see that you could rereate all the 'analogue subtleties' of physically playing a guitar.

Guitars come in a bit cheaper than Bosendorfers though!! (Is that the piano that was used for the *big* patch in Alesis's NanoPiano?)

Good luck in your search!

Royston

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 12:54 pm

On 2004-02-23 10:24, Counterparts wrote:
Q - is that something that needs "implementing"? I'd have thought good miking was the key to acheiving this? [dunno factor 10]

yes it does

and even though I'm not a pianist - once you had a piano with that feature, you'll just miss it

True string resonance has nothing to do with recording and nothing at all with 'sustained' samples.

It's pretty simple btw. If you press a key on the piano there's the hammer movement and the damper is moved from the string so it's free to oscillate.

After the tone decayed the free string starts to oscillate again by resonance if the same note in a different octave is played and the orininal key is still pressed.
Since during regular play keys are frequently 'still down' there's a pretty complex pattern developing.

This feature is usually faked by reverb, which sounds somewhat similiar.
It's really simple to detect, you don't have to be a studied expert for this.
Just play a staccato middle C and then do the same while pressing another 'silent' C without hammer action on a real piano.

What annoys me is the fact that those hyper pianos do shine specially in more or less solo or ballad applications - and exactly then the above mentioned effect is vital for the piano's character.
It is neglectible in the backgoung of a mix, but there you don't need a 500 MB dance piano, as the sample size originates from long decays

cheers, Tom

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 1:04 pm

ya, sympathetic resonance is impossible to do with samples. The physical chaos that happens inside a piano is near impossible to sample, and model.

Anyhow, aside from the physical accuracy tho, PMI bosendorfer does a pretty fine job. (compared to all the other sampled pianos anyway)

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:46 pm

And they stay in tune. As far as I'm concerned they are close enough. I'm willing to bet that the average listener can't tell that it's not a real piano. A piano is one of the most mechanical devices ever invented so it's a good candidate for sampling and besides that there are so many types of pianos plus they sound different in a different room. When even the difference between an empty hall and a hall full of people alters the sound, who is to say what the correct sound is?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:17 pm

Braincell, maybe I should have compared it to the difference between a software synth and your hardware ones

Of course anyone not completely deaf can hear the difference if you play the same piece on 2 keyboards using the same sample set, but one supports resonance.
And anyone will agree that the 'resonance' instrument sounds 'better' if asked for the prefered one.

It's not like to be able to tell a Yamaha from a Boesi or Steinway or Kawai - this is a different instrument. It is totally irritating, like using a knife that isn't sharp anymore or 5 year old strings on a guitar.

I've had a humble GEM Expander (feat. resonance) with horrible samples - yet I liked it more than the way better recorded Gigapiano - because it sounded somewhat different every time it was played.

Someone offeres the 'most realistic piano in the world' and leaves out the most tone defining feature ???
Braincell, I can't believe you're fooled so easily

cheers, Tom

ps: a resonance fake using midi isn't that difficult to program, a great example for some assembly coding btw

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:33 pm

If you play one note you surely could not tell the difference right? So the resonance makes zero difference in that case. I contend you are vastly over emphasizing the importance of the resonance. The general timbre is evident and evocative. Maybe some people don't like a real piano as much because the sound gets muddy when the strings vibrate in such a way. Sometimes there can be too much resonance. I would love to remind you that the modern piano is not the same instrument as the first pianos so the sound of the piano is evolving. Maybe this is the next step in the evolution of the piano.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:43 pm

guys, you're moving on to a different issue here. It's not "no resonance=suck" or "saying a sampled piano with no resonanceis good=you're deaf". I used to think sampled pianos all sucked 'till I recently tried the PMI series. I mean, they don't have resonance, but that doesn't make them useless, or crap. It's worth a check if you don't have a really good grand piano lying in your studio. (I'm pretty sure the PMI pianos sound better than a beat up upright piano)

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:45 am

Another resonance issue that I remember hearing about. When the electric guitar came out many classical guitar players thought it was just garbage and now many people prefer the sound of the electric guitar. It's not to say one is better it's just a different sound, but that is a much greater difference in sound than we are talking about here. I agree with Kensuguro. I ordered the PMI plugin-in today... and to think I thought PMI stood for "Private Mortgage Insurance".

I'll also have to install a DVD player for the software. The samples are so massive they only are available on a DVD for the plug-in. I hope this is a trend in samples.

[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2004-02-24 00:46 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:52 am

awright Ken - I'm possibly a bit biased because I once was about to buy Gigasampler exactly for that (giga)piano for several hundred Euros.
My comment wasn't about the samples and their usefulness - let alone your much appreciated experience with them - but about the general sales concepts of these products.

cheers, Tom

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:36 am

of course, I'd agree that if there was a lib that used resonance witht he quality of PMI, we'd all probably be running to get one. hehe.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:49 am

I was fool enough to buy the prosonous steinway a couple years ago. That was a waste of money.

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:59 am

Thanks for the enlightening explanation, Tom!

Royston