bbe is interested.

[astroman]

I agree with Eliam !
And DP for the " masses " ...

as Immanuel said - it wouldn't work.
98% of current software releases are just crap and survive only by the power of high clocked CPUs.
Today you'll hardly find developers being able to design a system from scratch.
Most stuff is modified code from examples repeating itself over and over.

sorry, Tom

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2004-01-01 19:55 ]</font>

[decimator]

Well, from what I read and the few screenshots I've seen it seems to me that DP is a very advanced SynthEdit or Reaktor : modules or atoms that you connect ... " just ", it's the level above.

Those who are already trained in this processes could find higher challenges ...

It's about smart connecting not coding.

I expect something from those who have a year + of intense studying and building.

I opened the lids of some top Reaktor creations and well ... ouch ! those people are not kidding !

The casual people would be rapidly discouraged I think ...

[eliam]

CW could sift through and choose the most promising prospects, just to exert a quality insurance, but imo they should encourage talented developers to join in the family! It's a 2 way situation though, for they must regain full economic health to be really interesting for developers. Shouldn't they have encouraged more development since long ago? I won't speculate on that, but they certainly must learn some lessons for the years to come...

[astroman]

On 2004-01-01 20:12, decimator wrote:
...It's about smart connecting not coding.

(imho) the emphasis is on smart and that requires exactly the same talents as if people write real programming code.

The core element of programming isn't the final sequence of instructions, it's the ability to analyze and abstract a physical situation to reproduce it in math form.

Since anyone would be able to click one or the other item together, it would inevitably lead to an inflation of crap.

aside from that there are 2 reasons I could think of why it's handled as is:

DP would give hackers quite an insight of what's going on behind the curtain.
The more rigid developer licenses are controlled, the smaller the danger.

It also would give competitors deep insights of the system structure. Usually that stuff is licenced only under heavy non-disclosure contracts and requires not to work for a competitor.

I dunno if this applies, as it's my very personal, nasty phantasy.

I see your points, though - and really wonder to what this might lead.
In a more global context it is comparable to our local education system which guarantees equal opportunities for everyone.
Look at current reports about German students to what this led...

cheers, Tom

[decimator]

I agree about the analogy of coding and building with atoms, also if the same recipes are endlessly re-used we could sink in non-excitment !
I remember a Reaktor ensemble ... the guy must have read something about additive synthesis and a new module with 4 sines outputs was released ( version 3 ) well he roughly put 4 or more modules, an ADSR for amp ( for what I remember )
Result : the thing was a hog on my 1 Ghz and it was the most boring synth I had ever tried !! I also choked in laughter !!

I'am not sure he could even do that with DP easily plus I suppose you can't study the creations of others ( are they " locked " ? )

From what I've read, DP is more time consuming to get things right so even if it's made popular there could be a terrible selection of the fittest.

I don't know how many people have DP, 50 ?
We can't say we are flooded with devices !!
There's a bunch of performers then a new developer " coming out " once in a while ...

If and if the majority of CW users are " just " hardcore amateurs that have also bills to pay, I don't know if there's an interesting payback for big companies to invest in massive hours of work for a bunch of copies sold every month ...

For instance, if you look at Adern's, 100 + registered very soon in the forum then it's rather calm ...

I believe more in something like the Reaktor community where there's emulation among hardcore passionnates, it creates a gravitational pull, people want to learn, enthusiasm, snowballing ...

Then focus on CW, more people in, even if they aren’t that rich, the global mass would make it worthwhile for big fishes to enter the game

I woudn't mind downloading a device once a week and then trying to give advice for improvement

But if your points about piracy and competition were the reason why DP has low profile then no need to argue !

[astroman]

I admit that something like the Reaktor or Nord Modular community as you introduce it indeed makes sense. But I guess the market isn't very promising (see below).

Frank Hund himself once posted we'd see only the 'tip of the iceberg once' if focused on the DAW part of the cards and software.
We all know the broadcast business is an important part, too - but that is fairly the same playground.

I always suspected there's even a greater share in OEM and industrial applications. Those customers certainly expect their investments protected.
I know this kind of business from some medical enterprises - your earnings are at least 10 times larger than with poor audio stuff.

The question we cannot answer is which kind of business is more profitable.

Imho the classical synth market is pretty exploited and obviously people honor the emulation of 'classical' equipment.
So the ePiano is inevitable, a couple of Korgs and a bunch of famous compressors and reverbs.
All these cannot be home made as a huge amount of measuring equipment plus expensive 'originals' are required.
That stuff will sell, but a 'community' can hardly contribute.

The other (next big) thing will be convolution, but way beyond the recently spread reverbs.
The Hartmann synth can be considered basically as a predecessor of something in that direction.
Audio information in the Neuron is encoded in a special form and the processing itself is a form of convolution (imho - though I don't know the math details).
The neural network technology is applied to do the analysis of the data to drive the encoding stage, but not for the audio generation.
Again this is a field for highly sophisticated developers and not amateurs.

Nevertheless I don't think that someone really ambitious and determined would be shrieked away from current conditions.
I have to do some developement myself currently and while I could have done it with a free version of php, I choose a 3k € system because I found it more promising and time-effective.

cheers, Tom

[decimator]

Yes, I have very wild dreams of a community of developers that could release devices on a weekly basis, I include fix and upgrades !

They could do mostly the "non academic" projects, not the Minimax & Co, to each their own ... each filling a niche ... cooperation.

Now that CW has reached such high sonic qualities, I expect something magic to happen but if there are some " protections issues " to spoil the party, I would understand CW is reluctant to make DP more popular.

Concerning next stage ( convolution and ? ) : Flexor was already a revelation on old atoms so bring it anyway if available and test it on humans ...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: decimator on 2004-01-06 17:15 ]</font>

[dehuszar]

Right here in this very thread, your questions have been answered. ...sort of.

Sam

On 2003-11-12 12:28, CW Frank wrote:
We consider releasing a new DP kit not too far away in the future, stay tuned. Frank

[decimator]

Yeah, I remember ... I hope it won't be too much delayed due to current harsh times.

[astroman]

me too but since they made almost the same statement close before release of SFP-3 and never mentioned it again, I didn't take it too seriously.
Or is this a hidden code for anouncing a new software version ?

Nevertheless, though I'm able to find a couple of reasons (in the traditional context) that make sense why DP is restricted, I'd be the last one not to appreciate if 'a new version' finally gets to the public.
Decimator, you almost convinced me about more positive effects than drawbacks
Maybe 2004 will a year of changes ?

cheers, Tom

[decimator]

Crossing fingers ... crossing fingers for a big surprising Creamware 2004 !