so why algorithmic composition?
dArKr3zIn:
You misunderstood me. I am not saying that science knows everything. I am saying that I only accept truths which can be proven. This is the only logical way, otherwise there would be a myriad of superstitions to consider.
According to the bible I should be attending church on Sunday. This is why politicians set up laws which forbid the sale of whiskey or vodka on Sunday where I live. Nevermind that you can get just as drunk on beer and our so called constitution (in the USA) calls for a separation of church and state. It is a sad fact that the American dollar reads "In God We Trust". I am ashamed to have come from such a backwards country as this.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2003-08-29 13:38 ]</font>
You misunderstood me. I am not saying that science knows everything. I am saying that I only accept truths which can be proven. This is the only logical way, otherwise there would be a myriad of superstitions to consider.
According to the bible I should be attending church on Sunday. This is why politicians set up laws which forbid the sale of whiskey or vodka on Sunday where I live. Nevermind that you can get just as drunk on beer and our so called constitution (in the USA) calls for a separation of church and state. It is a sad fact that the American dollar reads "In God We Trust". I am ashamed to have come from such a backwards country as this.
On 2003-08-29 10:05, dArKr3zIn wrote:
There is a *lot* that science does not know.
To think that science knows everything is perhaps the most ignorant belief of all.
peace
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2003-08-29 13:38 ]</font>
Also belief in god or gods is not the same everywhere. And most of the times this has pushed things very very bad, and a big suffering to vaste moltitudes.
My religious sense of life makes me consider nasty the idea of being devoted to such a swindle as the "Truth". Expecially if this "Truth" is not true for everyone.
So, everything that is different for the different people, can be interesting, poetic, marvelous or cruel, frustrating, hypocrite, but shouldn't claim to be the "Truth".
Science is not (shouldn't be) the counterpart of religion in a race to monopolize the "Truth". Science (as a mental behaviour) is a honest way to afford the unknown.
Magical solutions can make you dream, but there are too many around, too many people suffer for this, to make them appealing for my religious sense of life.
I prefer to keep my ignorance and solve it step by step.
Cheers all
My religious sense of life makes me consider nasty the idea of being devoted to such a swindle as the "Truth". Expecially if this "Truth" is not true for everyone.
So, everything that is different for the different people, can be interesting, poetic, marvelous or cruel, frustrating, hypocrite, but shouldn't claim to be the "Truth".
Science is not (shouldn't be) the counterpart of religion in a race to monopolize the "Truth". Science (as a mental behaviour) is a honest way to afford the unknown.
Magical solutions can make you dream, but there are too many around, too many people suffer for this, to make them appealing for my religious sense of life.
I prefer to keep my ignorance and solve it step by step.
Cheers all
Those who think that there is no Cosmic or Divine Intelligence behind the vastness, magnificence and perfection of Creation should pull their heads out of the sand right away and call the Hand of God to come illumine their path! Unfortunately, most of those who choose the "prove it" line of thought are too stubborn to even try a thing so that they could have unlimited proof for their own self to gaze at!
It's like if you go see a piano teacher and say to him "prove it to me that I can learn to play piano, or otherwise I won't believe it!" What can we reply to such an attitude, but "prove it to yourself, buddy, or you'll never learn!" If you sincerely open your mind and Heart to the possibility that there are other, mightier, yet unknown things in the Universe outside of mankind's pitiful and wilfull ignorance and arrogance, then you open the door to Infinity! Then many things can be proven and shown that otherwise wouldn't have been accessible.
Even if my words may seem drastic, I say this in a friendly spirit!
Be at peace.
It's like if you go see a piano teacher and say to him "prove it to me that I can learn to play piano, or otherwise I won't believe it!" What can we reply to such an attitude, but "prove it to yourself, buddy, or you'll never learn!" If you sincerely open your mind and Heart to the possibility that there are other, mightier, yet unknown things in the Universe outside of mankind's pitiful and wilfull ignorance and arrogance, then you open the door to Infinity! Then many things can be proven and shown that otherwise wouldn't have been accessible.
Even if my words may seem drastic, I say this in a friendly spirit!
Be at peace.
-
paulrmartin
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada
Please read this:
http://cnn.com.tr/2003/WORLD/africa/06/ ... a.stoning/
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2003-08-29 19:30 ]</font>
http://cnn.com.tr/2003/WORLD/africa/06/ ... a.stoning/
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2003-08-29 19:30 ]</font>
-
Nestor
- Posts: 6683
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
I quite understand you Braincell, and I know that fanaticism it's terrible, and we are actually experiencing it in Irak. Unfortunately, fanaticism has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with mysticism or anything like that... You are holding a very ferm position in regard to "belive" as a whole, but you don't realise that you are all the time keeping up a belive in non-believing, and so, you are keeping yourself close into your own concepts cos you are not discovering anything new. Me too, I dislike to death all fanaticism and must be honest saying that many "institutions" that are behind believes are causing terrible damage to people, but the experience of these people is so wide open, that you cannot posible judge them all, and you cannot assume just like that, through a very light trend of thoughts that there is nothing beyond matter... You'll be surprised at what science is going to show you in a few years time... You'll be more than surprised, totally and absolutely amazed at the fact that science itself, will show you many realities that are completely out of touch for you and for me...
I am in no way discusing with you Brain, I do understand your anger against believes, and in much senses I have to give you a "yes you are right", cos there is too many bad things going on in the name of God. But you, and only you, have to be able to separate: religion from politics, believes from experience, theories from reality and anger to the stablished from some people that are looking a deeper life.
You know, I would like for this conversation to go on and on, but in a trully friendly way, as I am talking to you, I would like everybody talks here, without violence or agression of any kind.
Nobody can judge the universe as you are doing, give yourself a try, and think you only know an extremely small part of it, and what you know is in fact onto a planet called Earth, which travels at thousands and thusands of kilometers per hour, every day... you are flying through space. Space itself it is so enormous, that nobody knows if there is actually an end. There is the concept of infinite because of this...
If you go to the infinitely small, you'll to be amazed, cos science is going all the time deeper and deeper... At fist molecules were considered to be the biggest form of matter, then atoms, then scientists have fractioned atoms in many, many particles that are being studied, among them there are several which are in fact, totally thretening the normal behaviour of mater cos they exist, but they are not in the 3th dimension...
Please, open your mind, cos your "believe" is in fact, retaining you from growing to actually discover if somehing is true or falce. Only EXPERIENCE, and nothing else, will give you the answer, all the rest is just a gathering of thoughts that takes place in your memory. Very sincerely Nestor.
I am in no way discusing with you Brain, I do understand your anger against believes, and in much senses I have to give you a "yes you are right", cos there is too many bad things going on in the name of God. But you, and only you, have to be able to separate: religion from politics, believes from experience, theories from reality and anger to the stablished from some people that are looking a deeper life.
You know, I would like for this conversation to go on and on, but in a trully friendly way, as I am talking to you, I would like everybody talks here, without violence or agression of any kind.
Nobody can judge the universe as you are doing, give yourself a try, and think you only know an extremely small part of it, and what you know is in fact onto a planet called Earth, which travels at thousands and thusands of kilometers per hour, every day... you are flying through space. Space itself it is so enormous, that nobody knows if there is actually an end. There is the concept of infinite because of this...
If you go to the infinitely small, you'll to be amazed, cos science is going all the time deeper and deeper... At fist molecules were considered to be the biggest form of matter, then atoms, then scientists have fractioned atoms in many, many particles that are being studied, among them there are several which are in fact, totally thretening the normal behaviour of mater cos they exist, but they are not in the 3th dimension...
Please, open your mind, cos your "believe" is in fact, retaining you from growing to actually discover if somehing is true or falce. Only EXPERIENCE, and nothing else, will give you the answer, all the rest is just a gathering of thoughts that takes place in your memory. Very sincerely
Nestor.-
kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
ahh, quite funny that the computer music vs human music debate flourished into science versus fantasy and magic. And I guess it all makes sense. It's a clash of values, and it only goes to prove that our approach to music is in fact, a replication of our values.
But keeping the religious debate aside, here's my take on science vs magic. After I've built the trance "brain", I was kind of puzzled at why programming the brain was so hard. My initial plan was to make very few governing rules that covered everything. The engine was supposed to be very simple.
But then, in reality, I had to teach it everything. Step by step, down to the minute details. It was dumb. It was so "aware" of each and every rule I tought it. Essentialy, it had to be told what choices to take. It needed to know what exactly to do.
But when I write a tune, I make choices differently. I don't make choices based on chance. Statistically, maybe yes. But during the process of making the choice there are so many different things that come into play, and the cool thing is, I'm not aware of it. I'm not aware of every single factor that is influencing my choice. It may be cool to know some day, but then if I had to think of all the factors when writing a tune, that'll be too much information for my brain to process. Humans have a natural ability to compress information, weigh the important ones, and to process the less important ones unconsciously. I'd consider this feat itself much too complex to implement, and so I think it's fair enough to call it "magic".
You're pretty sure there's a gimmick behind it, but you can't really tell what's going on. That's magic. That's why we have thousands of researchers trying to figure it out, because it's cool to know how a magic trick works.
What's funny is though, even when you figure out how a magic trick works, you really can't do it yourself, cuz that takes practice and talent. Maybe that's what magic tricks are all about anyway.
But keeping the religious debate aside, here's my take on science vs magic. After I've built the trance "brain", I was kind of puzzled at why programming the brain was so hard. My initial plan was to make very few governing rules that covered everything. The engine was supposed to be very simple.
But then, in reality, I had to teach it everything. Step by step, down to the minute details. It was dumb. It was so "aware" of each and every rule I tought it. Essentialy, it had to be told what choices to take. It needed to know what exactly to do.
But when I write a tune, I make choices differently. I don't make choices based on chance. Statistically, maybe yes. But during the process of making the choice there are so many different things that come into play, and the cool thing is, I'm not aware of it. I'm not aware of every single factor that is influencing my choice. It may be cool to know some day, but then if I had to think of all the factors when writing a tune, that'll be too much information for my brain to process. Humans have a natural ability to compress information, weigh the important ones, and to process the less important ones unconsciously. I'd consider this feat itself much too complex to implement, and so I think it's fair enough to call it "magic".
You're pretty sure there's a gimmick behind it, but you can't really tell what's going on. That's magic. That's why we have thousands of researchers trying to figure it out, because it's cool to know how a magic trick works.
What's funny is though, even when you figure out how a magic trick works, you really can't do it yourself, cuz that takes practice and talent. Maybe that's what magic tricks are all about anyway.
wait!
i thought SCIENCE was all about fantasy and imagination.the scientific process is thus:
1.make a guess.(hypothesis is a fancy word for guess)
2.observe.
3.until observations show otherwise,accept your guess.
so lots of science,even science that seems to work,is fantasy and even falsehood.that's why when there is a new "discovery",all the books must be rewritten.
the language of science is mathematics.the language of the occult is mathematics.often the occult IS religion.what is 666?(please don't answer though,it's only an example.)most people in religions know nothing of the true teachings,only what they have heard.the bible NEVER said to go to church on sunday.the religion did.
we only REdiscover knowledge.we always use that which is already here and use it according to the seen possibilities.
the main thing is that the music sounds cool!
the true creator of all things does not need your belief or anything.it is not comprehensible.relax.someday,we can follow the trail backwards and forwards,together and know the completeness.religions are made for government.when moslems are stoning,the people are under great pressure by those above them or,as in the case of men stuck on a boat with limited provisions and faced with a rogue with a death wish continually trying to sink the boat,defend themselves,just like any other human religious or not.i see plenty of godless men daily killing by the millions(check the HISTORY of congo,sorry to the nation whose elite found this situation profitable,but you can be sure that religion was at best the excuse,not the cause for the nasty behavior.those men were not spiritual,even.)
the main thing is the music is cool!and you should get a few cents from ascap everytime a new tune is generated.(they pile up!)
p.s.you don't deserve any coins for the crappy tune that get generated though.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2003-08-30 00:39 ]</font>
i thought SCIENCE was all about fantasy and imagination.the scientific process is thus:
1.make a guess.(hypothesis is a fancy word for guess)
2.observe.
3.until observations show otherwise,accept your guess.
so lots of science,even science that seems to work,is fantasy and even falsehood.that's why when there is a new "discovery",all the books must be rewritten.
the language of science is mathematics.the language of the occult is mathematics.often the occult IS religion.what is 666?(please don't answer though,it's only an example.)most people in religions know nothing of the true teachings,only what they have heard.the bible NEVER said to go to church on sunday.the religion did.
we only REdiscover knowledge.we always use that which is already here and use it according to the seen possibilities.
the main thing is that the music sounds cool!
the true creator of all things does not need your belief or anything.it is not comprehensible.relax.someday,we can follow the trail backwards and forwards,together and know the completeness.religions are made for government.when moslems are stoning,the people are under great pressure by those above them or,as in the case of men stuck on a boat with limited provisions and faced with a rogue with a death wish continually trying to sink the boat,defend themselves,just like any other human religious or not.i see plenty of godless men daily killing by the millions(check the HISTORY of congo,sorry to the nation whose elite found this situation profitable,but you can be sure that religion was at best the excuse,not the cause for the nasty behavior.those men were not spiritual,even.)
the main thing is the music is cool!and you should get a few cents from ascap everytime a new tune is generated.(they pile up!)
p.s.you don't deserve any coins for the crappy tune that get generated though.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2003-08-30 00:39 ]</font>
Ken, I dunno how deep your interests in programming are but http://www.lpa.co.uk might be worth checking for getting some of this 'magic' into your engine.On 2003-08-29 22:04, kensuguro wrote:
...But then, in reality, I had to teach it everything. Step by step, down to the minute details. It was dumb.
... Humans have a natural ability to compress information, weigh the important ones, and to process the less important ones unconsciously. I'd consider this feat itself much too complex to implement, and so I think it's fair enough to call it "magic".
The Prolog language and programming 'style' is completely different from C or Java.
In fact they have nothing in common at all, but the processing fits perfectly with music.
Since Prolog is usually applied on linguistic problems or expert systems, there's no direct interface to the sound system afaik, but it can use any .dll stuff.
There's no version for your new Powerbook available, though. They ceased the Mac line completely due no few sales.
cheers, Tom
-
paulrmartin
- Posts: 2445
- Joined: Sun May 20, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Montreal, Canada