Oh Hell

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Neil B

Post by Neil B »

This file has expired and is no longer available here. The owner of the topic can re-upload the file, or post a link to an off-site file. <BR><BR><a name="planetz-tag"></a>Genre: Electronic<BR> <a name="planetz-tag"></a>Uses: Pulsar Synths<BR> copyright © 2003 Neil Buxton<BR> _____________________________________<BR><BR> This track is for Spoimala, Mr Swim, Braincell and anyone else who worries about having unfinished 2 minute bits of tracks on their hard disks - see the following thread “Finishing Tracks (or even getting started) in the Off Topic Forum: http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... orum=31&23

First the story:
Once upon a time, long long ago, lived a guy with a Korg 700, Korg 700S, Elka Rhapsody String Synth, an electric piano that wasn’t even velocity sensitive and an organ that was simply awful. In terms of effects, it was all routed through a guitarist’s battery powered, foot operated, phaser pedal and a Wem Copycat.
There was a battery operated mixer with only 4 knobs (one for each keyboard volume input – really it was that sophisticated) and into an amp. Yes, there were 5 keyboards and 4 mixer inputs so he twisted the leads together (times were hard).
This was in the days long before Cubase, Pulsar, Midi, digital audio and even computers, when men were men and drummers were ….. well, that’s another story!
This guy had a love of the newly emerging electronic music but he also loved other music such as Gregorian Chant or Plainsong.
His wife’s granny had given them her old stereo tape recorder (and I mean old and we’re not talking Tascam here either – Dansette I think!). So this composer decided to split the stereo signal input and record from the keyboards on one side of the input signal, and from a Gregorian chant MONO Vinyl LP on the other input.
Wow, monks and synths and filter sweeps – this was going to be great.
Wife was on hand to move the filter sweep slider when he told her to and, being a great studio assistant, she even pressed record on the old tape deck too!
After 3 seconds the tape deck blew up with smoke everywhere – end of project.
This is a true story – I kid you not.

Years later someone else had a similar idea of using Gregorian Chant to synthesised music and drum tracks. I cursed them. “It was my idea”, I shouted, even though there were no drum machines in the ancient days.

Anyway, back to the present time. I found some (poor quality) Gregorian bits recently and decided to do something with one of them. The resulting track is attached, although it bears very little resemblance to that original idea.

So this 2 minute idea wasn’t even on a hard disk – it’s been in my head for 25 years!! The question is, should I have simply forgotten about it? I’d appreciate all positive, negative and any constructive comments please, so I can do a final version.
I’m still getting my head around all this audio mixing stuff and it’s the first time that I’ve really used Recycle in earnest and it’s definitely the most I’ve ever done in terms of effects processing, channel routing, mixing and mastering.
Yes, there is still lots to learn – so any comments and advice about any aspects of the track will really be appreciated.

Trackname: Hell 5 Mins:07 Secs)
Filename NeilB_Hell_V1.MP3 Size: 4.85 Mb
Recorded at 32 bit and mixed down to MP3 at 16 bit, 44.1 @ 128 thingies.

Equipment:
Pulsar 3.1, Cubase VST 5.1/32, Recycle 2.0 and other odd little gadgets and tools
Kenton Control Freak
Pulsar Sample Players F & Z
Pulsar Synths: DubSub, Prisma, Inferno, 303
Choir samples courtesy of Spectrasonics “Symphony of Voices”
Gregorian wave file from somewhere I can’t remember – translation is “Lord have mercy”.
Vocal speech courtesy of evangelist David Pawson, from a tape recording of his “Hell” tour of Britain (although I forgot to ask if I could use it, thus breaking the 8th commandment “Thou shalt not steal” and condemning myself to hell). :grin:

Thanks also to my wife’s (dearly departed) granny for original technical contributions (the tape deck).

Neil B
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ChrisWerner
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Post by ChrisWerner »

Damn Neil you had this idea 25 Years ago?
Mr. Cretu should read and hear this, you could be a rich man now.

Your story reminds me on my starting time with electronic music and euqipment. My Tape Deck has survived though.

You had much work with this track or? Collecting and recording the speech and chant, learning to use recycle and Cubase.
I know you worked hard the last time, much manuals and e-mails.

Your work in the past pays now, the quality of sound and mixing improved very much.
How is your feeling now ? Is the digital world a good tool for your music? I think yes,or?

To the track, the filterd panning pad sounds great and opens the gate to the hell. The speech and chants are processed well, I can´t hear any noise in that recordings. The recycled drum loops works with the deep bass.
I miss a melody in this track, without a melody and some other Pads or Fx sounds this track flows like a stream of honey. It is too long with such few sounds. You have to keep the listener busy. Some bridges, tensions between the single parts would smooth this song. I like the second part with that bell but less chimes would be better. Also I like that you play with the effects, the delay in the second part for example. You open the gate to hell but let something come out now.
Three or four additional tracks and the song is finished. You don´t need any further work on the mastering, good!

I hope you´ll get more replies than my, only.

Now a 25years old idea is worked out, how is your feeling Neil?


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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2003-07-03 12:34 ]</font>
Submarine
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Post by Submarine »

Hi Neil ,
to you first story :i hope the muse will give
you the power to invent a new style, as a second chance you know.:smile:
I like your song indeed but everytime when you start the bass i missed something ,there is a little bit understatement, you can spread the theme i feel(for my taste).
It sounds round and relaxed.
hubird

Post by hubird »

nice done Neil, I specially like the filtered drumloop, sounds very sophisticarted (GRM filter?).
But ehh, sorry to say this, but there was a big charts hit years ago, with a famous Gregorian song mixed with modern dance drums.
I know that the monks singing in that song is a traditional on the 3rd sunday after Easter, a ex monk told me that...
If I'm right the song was made by Ennya, but I'm not so sure.
It's a beautifull song, if I'm right with a 'German Flute' soloing.
No harm, just for the record :smile: :smile:
Neil B

Post by Neil B »

Thanks for the comments guys.

In reverse order:
Hubird - I think you mean Enigma not Ennya, and no need to apologise because it's been done before - I mentioned it in my storyline.
I wasn't after originality - just getting something out of my system and playing around with Recycle :grin:
The processed drum effect was done by using a standard preset with the Ohmboyz plug-in.
Basically I took the original drum loop and run it through a lo-fi filter in Recycle.
I then took a copy of the original, dropped a couple of beats out and put it through the Ohmboyz. Both of these are then layered in the mix. I think the thing that makes the drums in this section stand out though is the way I drew the panning and filter cutoffs of the Prisma pad such that it would never meet up in the same position as the drum tracks. The pad stays low and out of the way but it elevates the drum track a bit.

Submarine - Yes, I agree with you. There is something missing in a couple of places - Chris hints at the same. I'll try a few things. Glad you like some of it though.

Chris - When I think about it, this is possibly the quickest track I've done in a while, although yes, there was a lot of work and "research" involved with things like Recycle. Fortunately we had a few rainy days over here in the UK. It only took a few weeks in between biking in Wales & Scotland :grin:
Perhaps it didn't take so long because you reckon I've missed 3 or 4 tracks out :grin:
I'll have a look into a melody line and a few more bits and pieces - in fact some are already recorded but I dropped them out of the final mix.
The pad is a simple variation on the Galaxy Quest in Prisma. I merely edited the delay values to fit the tempo on one side of the pan and half the tempo on the right hand side, programmed a few of the relevant dials to the Control Freak and then the filtering, ADSR and panning etc was all done on the midi side in Cubase.
I'm pleased that you think the mix/mastering quality is improving. Thanks for your help on that. Your workshop and subsequent assistance has been a real help to me.
It was a surprise to me to realise that this is only the second track that I have uploaded that I have worked in audio instead of midi, if you know what I mean. You of course did all the engineering for the Starchaser trilogy, so I'm quite pleased with the result so far (for a second attempt). You're a hard tutor though :grin:

So, while I wait for (hopefully) some more comments and rsponses, I'll do some more work on the track (now written by a committee).

Thanks for the feedback guys.
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AudioIrony
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Post by AudioIrony »

Hey Neil,
Great Bass line - wanted to hear more of that !!
Just an idea - but why not go completely mad with the Gregorian chant by reversing it - chopping it into loops and/or playing with it in Recycle ?
Not that it really matters as you say, but could be a way around the "Enigma" comparison thing.
Just my 2¢ worth.
And speaking of Hell, Canberra has warmed up slightly :grin:
My little story - I used to program a Juno with a TR505 (as a kind of step sequencer) and then record the results to a TASCAM 4 track and over dub Pentecostal ministerial babble about the "Rapture" and evil spirits in Asian wooden carvings :lol:

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: blgrace on 2003-07-04 02:03 ]</font>
Neil B

Post by Neil B »

Thanks for responding BLGrace,
The dubsub is a nice synth to work with although it did throw up a few frustrating moments during this track.
Another good storyline from you too - I'll bet they were long tracks if you were using Pentecostal Sermons. Mind you it would save copying loops because they tend to repeat themselves 3 times anyway :grin:
I'm quite happy to have the Enigma comparison - at least it shows that elements of the track are recognisable as something :grin:
I'm not sure about your ideas for the monks though.
Firstly, I'm much too nice a guy to do things like that.
I've already broken the 8th commandment by stealing David Pawsons voice.
I'd hate to break the 6th (Thou shalt not commit murder) by chopping up the monks into little pieces.
I also think that (depending on your point of view) I'd break the 7th commandment as well (Thou shalt not commit adultery) by "having" the monks backwards :grin:

Oh no - Hubird - this is a family friendly site - keep those smilies away from the last 2 comments.

Anyway, I'm pleased to be getting friendly, constructive coments and that you guys enjoyed the track.


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Neil B

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Neil B on 2003-07-05 02:03 ]</font>
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AudioIrony
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Post by AudioIrony »

hahahaha.... Well I would never recommend breaking any commandments or blasphemy as a matter of course.
"Nairogerg Stnahc" does have a certian: "I want to speak about Hell" feeling about it though :grin:
---xxxxxxxx---
And Charlie said: "I'm cool with that" and set fire to a posh hammer to make it official
---xxxxxxxx---
zezappa
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Post by zezappa »

I really like this one!
I haven't got much time now but just to say that here I feel emotion, purity, inspiration and not that plastic kind of sound from Enigma, Era and similars.
Thanks NealB and Have Fun!
better muZic makes better days
Neil B

Post by Neil B »

Hi again BLGrace:
Yes, "Nairogerg Stnahc" has a great ring to it :grin:
Incidentally, you said "I would never recommend breaking any commandments or blasphemy as a matter of course". I do hope that you weren't offended by my flippancy and in no way would I seek to be blasphemous. Apologies if I was out of order.

Zezappa:
Thanks for your short response. With the comments that you have posted with your 2 tracks recently, I hope that the mix quality (if not the musical content) of this track has encouraged you. It is only my second "solo" mix with this technology. My previous uploads have been midi conversions or joint tracks of me & Chris Werner, where Chris mixed them. If the quality through your speakers is good enough, it is all down to the help from articles and people on this website (one strange German in particular!).
You said "...I feel emotion, purity, inspiration and not that plastic kind of sound from Enigma..."
Thanks for that - this was intended to use monks and the vocal lines for a purpose. If I remember correctly, the Enigma album and tracks such as Sadness & Mea Culpa was based around sado-masechism and the Marquis de Sade.
In view of everyones comments to date, I will change the track over the next few days and upload again, but just a quick question please folks - was the mix quality okay through all your speakers/hi-fi systems?

Neil
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Post by AudioIrony »

Me !!! . .. offended.. no way - I can do humour too
:lol:
O.K, I'll have to come clean and admit that I'm not a religious person at all. Probably not the right place for this - but I have a good story(joke) about that too:
An atheist was walking through the woods one day in Alaska, admiring all that evolution had created.

"What majestic trees! What a powerful river! What beautiful animals!" he said to himself.

As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him.

Turning to look, he saw a 13 foot Kodiak brown bear beginning to charge towards him.

He ran as fast as he could down the path.

He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was rapidly closing on him.

Somehow, he ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes.He looked again and the bear was even closer.

His heart pounding in his chest, he tried to run faster yet.

But alas, he tripped and fell to the ground.

As he rolled over to pick himself up, the bear was right over him, reaching for him with its left paw and raising its right paw to strike him.

"OH MY GOD! ..."

Time stopped.

The bear froze.

The forest was silent.

Even the river stopped moving ... As a brilliant light shone upon the man, a thunderous voice came from all around, "YOU DENY MY EXISTENCE FOR ALL THESE YEARS, TEACH OTHERS THAT I DON'T EXIST AND EVEN CREDIT CREATION TO SOME COSMIC ACCIDENT. DO YOU EXPECT ME TO HELP YOU OUT OF THIS PREDICAMENT? AM I TO COUNT YOU AS A BELIEVER?"

Difficult as it was, the atheist looked directly into the light and said, "It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years, but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian?"

"VERY WELL." Said God.

The light went out.

The river ran.

The sounds of the forest resumed. .. and the bear dropped down on his knees, brought both paws together, bowed his head and spoke: "Lord, thank you for this food which I am about to receive."


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: blgrace on 2003-07-05 21:51 ]</font>
Neil B

Post by Neil B »

:grin: :grin: :grin:
I heard this joke a couple of years ago as part of a sermon. Thanks for reminding me of it. It's a classic. Have a good weekend
Zombie Agent
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Post by Zombie Agent »

Hi Neil

Firstly great production, no problems there, sound quality's great, so don't worry about that. I love all the sounds, they mesh very well together. This is I believe the most important aspect of any production. Well done!!!

I love the vocal samples you've gotta keep them. Nice delay!!! I don't worry too much about meanings with tracks using a just few short samples like this, unless you spell it out in plain English, people will always interpret them in there own way. If you wish to push a strong message about Hell here, you need more vocals and sounds to back it up. I just hear some very nice voice samples which compliment a thoughtfully constructed backing to create an evocative and pleasing atmosphere.

As far as melody goes, you don't need to do anything. There are other ways of talking with music other than melody. Some strong filter sweep hits, white noise hits, apocalyptic sounds etc. could work wonders. Chop out the word Hell on its own and have it follow the snare rhythm in a break somewhere.

While I'm on drums I love what you did with the filter in Recycle, this should be incorporated into the main rhythm part to create more interest. You could drop the the snare and hats out altogether in places also. Definitely more drum breaks within the main beat needed. Perhaps shorten the track a little and keep the changes coming thick and fast. You want people to sit up and listen!

The Gregorian Chant sits a bit flat in the mix for me, try a different reverb. Or have a nice contrasting sound arpeggio come in at the same time as the chant maybe?

Just a few ideas. Hope they make sense to you. Let me know.

cheers Mark
Neil B

Post by Neil B »

Hi Mark (Zombie Agent),
thank you so much for your review - it means a lot to me - it was your last track that you emailed me that made me get more into loops and samples and write this track. You really should upload that track soon.

The comments are very interesting, and isn't it also interesting how different people have different views? Hence the value of PlanetZ.
During the odd occasions that I’ve revisited the track (weather has been too good to be stuck behind a synth), I’ve tried dropping some of the vocals out, adding melody line(s) etc, but I still feel more comfortable with my first instincts.
I appreciate everyone's ideas that have contributed/responded. I think that Submarine has a point about a few flat spots and coupled wth your ideas about adding a few more FX/apocalyptic sounds etc to fill out any "flat" spots, plus a few other ideas, I now feel that I know which way to go to finish it.
I'm gald that the quality was acceptable too - I worked hard on that aspect and feel that I've made quite a bit of progress compared to earlier uploads.
Many thanks again, and DO upload your last track soon.
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Post by kensuguro »

Well, interesting how people have different subjective views. I'd like to give you a share of mine.

One problem.. the 16th of the kick drums during the fill... the 16th of the kicks are straight, while the rest of the beat is swinging. This didn't really hit the spot for me. It might be better if the kicks had swing too?

Nice smooth synth sounds overall. The bass could use some more enhancing? A bit more definition would suite my taste. And maybe a bit more funk and groove for the bass line. But, this is extremely subjective.

And, judging from my taste, you could maybe add a hit sound of some sort (a cymbal, or a pizzicato hit or something) at the start of a phrase, to sort of underline the first count. Again, just a matter of taste.

Nice bell sound.

The atmosphere's nice. The piece succeeds in creating an atmosphere of its own as it is. Left me wanting a buildup of some sort, and also a "section B" of some sort where the tune changes in mood, but that's just me. Again, the tune works as it is.
Neil B

Post by Neil B »

Thanks Ken,
I remember us having a "subjective" discussion some time ago. You've either got incredible hearing or you've taken a lot of effort in listening and replying, and I thank you for that.
Again, I agree with you and your ideas. There have come so many different views and ideas in, this really is looking like a committee track :grin:
The part 2 idea crossed my mind, but I certainly didn't pick up on the straight kiks.
This must be one of those tracks that could go in many directions, but in the end will never be "complete". What a dilemma!
It would probably be fun to put each mp3'd track onto somewhere and let everyone have a go as a competition :grin:
Anyway, thanks again.
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Post by spoimala »

Geez, a song for me! And it was not until now I even see this message. Thanks Neil. But I don't even have those tracks on my HD, in my head only.. just like you :wink:

I'm glad you put this to reality, sounds good.

I'm more interested in collecting devices and reading things than creating music right now... what a pity. But maybe this gives me a reason to start putting my ideas to tracks and to songs.
lexfx
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Post by lexfx »

Hello Neil,

Great drum track!

...although i would like to hear variants or elaborations of the kick fill at the end of each section.

I actually think that this track would be strong enough without the vocal samples if, as chris werner suggested, there was some kind of melody or new elements added. So perhaps there should be less emphasis on the samples, for example:

keep 'i want to speak about hell' but use it less (its good as the intro, so maybe end on it to), get rid of '40 years ago' etc (dont mean to sound rude, i just think its going a bit far and i think with this particular track, the music should be universal... sinners of other nationalities may be offended and might go off and download other hell tracks more appropriate to them, starting a sin song war...), leave the 'almost every morning, blah, blah, disiples' bit, as its fine as it is and make the monk chant a bit less prominant (push it back in the mix?), and do some trickery to it as someone already suggested (filter sweep? chop it up in recycle? vocoder!?).

Good track though...

Bye.
Neil B

Post by Neil B »

Thanks for the reply Lexfx. I thought that this one had sunk down the pile into obscurity!
I'm glad that you like the track - or elements of it. As you can see from previous replies, I'm quite pleased with this one.
I agree with you about the kik drum fills - it was as much a learning curve for using Recycle and editing audio files in general. Certainly in the next track you'll hear a difference. For that I'm grateful to BLGrace responding to Chris Werners "Badness" track on this forum - I gained quite a lot from his ideas about editing drum tracks in Cubase and Recycle etc - great site this eh?
I also agree with the leaving the "40 years out". Hindsight being the perfect science that it is, it does sit uncomfortably with me now. In fact it could have been used as the basis for another track.
I've tried a variety of variations to this track but at some stage you have to walk away and do something else. I may return to this in the future, who knows.
Regarding the content of the song, I have in the past made it known that I am a Christian, but in line with the rules of the site, I would never try to be "religious" on this or any other site. In fact this track is aimed at telling the established Christian church that they're becoming complacent and should watch it. I never intend to offend or preach. I apologise if you got the wrong end of the stick for any reason. I am not a religious nut - trust me :smile: It is just that recently the tracks I've been doing are sort of gospel based - anyone fancy doing a trip hop version of Kumbayah? :smile:
The next track - well into development - is in no way anything other than secular (well, Paul had to make tents for a living).
In fact this'll be uploaded asking for lots of help on the genre:
I'm not sure if it's trance, techno, pre-pubescent euro dance music (Hubird?) or what, but I'll need a lot of assistance from people like Amo and others.
So, glad you liked it, thanks for the comments, and I hope I gave no offence.

BTW - on your first upload you said something like "Well, now I've got a fan club, I'll get working on the next track".
I look forward to it :smile:



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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Neil B on 2003-08-20 13:19 ]</font>
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Post by ChrisWerner »

I had a dream, I will hear tracks styled like your Cafhere´s Walle project again.
I think this style was and is your strength.
You should continue this way !

It has nothing to do with this track, I still like the hell.

Cheers Mr.B
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