Need your advice on improving my guitar recordings...

Post by **garyb** » Mon May 05, 2003 9:47 pm

sure!

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Tue May 06, 2003 1:06 am

On 2003-05-05 20:39, rodos1979 wrote:
@ Ricardo & Marcuspocus: Do you think that a Rode NT1000 with an Art Tube MP Studio V3 would give good results?

@ Marcus: I could not find any ART Tube products at the site you mention. And 300 euros anyway, doesnot sound a very logical price for the DPS.

Yeah, i'm sure it will give excellent result, hey, i'm having excellent result with Art DPS, which is the same thing as Art Tube MP Studio v3 + digital out.

And, well, whatever it seems, i really paid exactly that amount 1 month ago for the Art DPS : 310€ @ http://www.homestudio.fr

And their Tube MP is 130€ if a remember well.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: marcuspocus on 2003-05-06 03:20 ]</font>

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Tue May 06, 2003 5:57 am

Concerming all those mics...a lot of mics do the job, but nonetheless some of those might simply be better suited for the task. I´ll take the the TLM103 as an example...

This mic is ok for many tasks, although I rarely use it on voice. But for recording acoustic guitars it´s one of my favorites (depending on the guitar/player/genre). Also for distant cardiod miking of instruments the transparency and higher frequency boost of this mic can benefit you. Mics whith a high frequency boost don´t sound bright when used on instruments that don´t have any fundamental frequencies/overtones up there. In such a case the boost in the upper spectrum will translate into clearness and smooth presence. Of course this isn´t a tube mic so you won´t get the roundness of a one, unless you have tubes somewhere else in your chain.

The sensitivity specs of the 103 indicates that this mic is suitable for instruments whith a key-stroke, so on things like piano, guitar, marimaba one should at least take this mic into consideration. There are a lot of bad choices one can do when recording instruments, where your wrong pick can lead to blurred out chords or uneven volumes of single tones, but a lot depends on the genre and what you´re after. The TLM 103 and many others are a superb all-round performer when you´re looking for warm, transparent and gentle instrument recordings.

On 2003-05-05 15:27, Thalamus wrote:
Hi,

For acustic guitar (both steel and nylon) I really like the sound of Røde Classic through SPL Goldmike with spartial enhancer setting on. I really take time to find the right position. I comb that with a SM-58 ca. 10 cm from the bridge. Sounds larger than life, and warmer than mama's boobies.

I also had luck with with Røde NT1000, Røde NTK, Nuemann U-87, Joemeek JM47 (Great underrated mic BTW. Perfect for female vocals), and in many occations Earthworks TC30K matched stereopair with almost "rulerflat" frequency response, is unbelievable "what-you-hear" in the room sound. But then again, you need a very nice room to use those. Awesome on snares too (SPL 130 db, which is incredible for an omni mic)

Could you tell me a little more about the SPL Goldmike? I´ve read some reviews of this unit but never had the chance to listen to one of them. You´re talking about a "stereo spreader", is it part of the Goldmike? The reason why I´m asking, is that hardware spereo spreaders should give you better results than software ones.... Also to what other micpres is the SPL Golsmike comparable, soundwise? Is it rather tuby, large, warm sounding or transparent? I´ve read about the "flair" switch which should be part of the unit. How does it sound?

Thanks!

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Tue May 06, 2003 8:36 am

Hello to all!

Sunshine, I had a look at the Neumann TLA 103, on the Neumann site. I am sure it must be a very good mic, but unfortunately can't afford it

I spent all my money on the Mackies HR624 for my home studio.

Ricardo · Post by **Ricardo** » Tue May 06, 2003 9:11 am

I have a few more thoughts on this. Rodos, you say that you play flamenco, classical guitar and a few other acoustic string instruments. Today I dug out an old recording of Manitas de Platas. This has so much energy and feel but by todays standards the recording is noisy etc. Just like listening to an old Al Green LP. But the music is amazing and the feel is all there. Don't worry too much about what mic, which pre amp. Any condensor mic at a (not very large) distance will take in your room acoustics as well, and these are important for the vibe, especially if you are playing solo. I bought the ART and Rode because they are good basic equipment to have and flexible in there use, and also because I'm not very financially well off! They are not THE best things to use but for the price they are pretty spunky items to have around. Play around with mic positions, different rooms etc. I'm no expert at all, but like everyone who contributes to this forum, I know what I like to hear (it drives my wife nuts).
Another idea is to find a place that hires out gear and try stuff out before you buy.
This has been an excellent post,
Look forward to hearing some of your and everyone elses creations.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Tue May 06, 2003 9:22 am

I think most people are biased in the sense, that they will accept a higher noise floor on old recordings, than on newer ones - no matter how much vibe is kept in the recording.

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Tue May 06, 2003 1:27 pm

On 2003-05-06 09:36, rodos1979 wrote:
Hello to all!

Sunshine, I had a look at the Neumann TLA 103, on the Neumann site. I am sure it must be a very good mic, but unfortunately can't afford it I spent all my money on the Mackies HR624 for my home studio.

The TLM was just an expample.

What about the Rode NT5? They come in matched pairs, have good sensitivity specs and you´ll be able to setup some stereo techniques. On guitars they sound similar to the KM84. Also the AKG small condenser 451EB could be a choice since it has some extras like switchable bass roll-offs and three polar patterns. It´s always good to have more choices.

If you´re interested in a tube mic here´s the best bang for the buck: http://bayviewproaudio.com/Cascade%20Co ... hones.html

According to some Nuendo users the M-55 sounds almost identical to the Neumann M149. Isn´t that interesting? I´m momentarily thinking myself wheather I shoud get one of those...

Bernahrd/

Thalamus · Post by **Thalamus** » Tue May 06, 2003 10:13 pm

On 2003-05-06 06:57, Sunshine wrote:

Could you tell me a little more about the SPL Goldmike? I´ve read some reviews of this unit but never had the chance to listen to one of them. You´re talking about a "stereo spreader", is it part of the Goldmike? The reason why I´m asking, is that hardware spereo spreaders should give you better results than software ones.... Also to what other micpres is the SPL Golsmike comparable, soundwise? Is it rather tuby, large, warm sounding or transparent? I´ve read about the "flair" switch which should be part of the unit. How does it sound?

Thanks!

I made a mistake, I was actually talking about the "FLAIR" button, but when I wrote the post i wasn't in my studio and could not remember the name (and had a little beer too... sorry)

What I really like about the SPL gold-mike is the actual sound of it. It superwarm, but without too much color and no muddiness. The "FLAIR" button is very secret, but it does something like boost several "nice" notches through the tubes, and adds "AIR" to vocals, and a nice warm treble boost or presence to other sources. Manual says "a timebase-shifting (phase) device that enhances a sound's harmonic content. The close relation between frequency and amplitude timebase and the source signal's dynamics remains intact.".

Goto http://www.soundperformancelab.com/Gold ... short.html to read about it.

I've had great luck with many sources, like vocals, snares, guitar, bass, synths and woodwinds. I keeps that "WOW" factor, and allways sounds "classy". I would not compare it with anything else, it has it own sound... (but rather neve'ish)

Ricardo · Post by **Ricardo** » Wed May 07, 2003 10:25 am

On 2003-05-06 10:22, Immanuel wrote:
I think most people are biased in the sense, that they will accept a higher noise floor on old recordings, than on newer ones - no matter how much vibe is kept in the recording.

You're quite right of course. What I meant to say was that as long as you have some way of getting the sound you're after, the music and vibe should follow, and the perfect mic can't provide this alone.
Thanks to Sunshine for the mic position tips, I've been trying these out with some success. I also must look into these M-55 mics if they really do sound like a Neumann M149. Amazing!
BTW if Rodos or anyone has any tips on getting a good 'nail on string sound' with digital recording I would be all ears as this seeems to be a bit of nemesis at the moment.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Wed May 07, 2003 1:15 pm

I once searched quite a bit to find Cascade michrophones other places, than at bayview - I failed to suceed. What I want to say is, I have never found anyone selling those microphones at retail price ...

I someone here gets one, I would like to hear comments on it.

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Wed May 07, 2003 3:17 pm

As far as I know th Cascades are their own house brand. Of course those mics come from china and they simply label it the way they want. But personally I don´t care if they come from Pakistan or elsewhere. I was told that in germany the MX-56 from cascade might be the same as the t-bone SCT2000.

http://www.netzmarkt.de/thomann/artikel-152308.html

If you compare the powersupply, you´ll notice that they are identical. But those mics are similar priced, so nothing special. But now look at this mic. I mean the ADK A-48 and compare it to the T-bone. The ADK mic runs for $1295 !!

http://www.adk.cc/

IMO, those are all the exact same microphones priced between $299 and $1295.
Unfortunately I have no information about the MX-56 and its sound. But I was told that the cascades have the most advanced grill whith less phase coloration. Allegedly this difference should really be audible, I was told. However, the only statement I´ve got came from the Nuendo forum where someone has had the MX-55 and the other cascades, whith the exeption of the MX-56.

Bernhard/

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Wed May 07, 2003 3:25 pm

Thalamus,

thank you very much for your Goldmike report, it was very helpful to me. As far as I know they aren´t priced that high anymore. I never had a product from SPL and am curious how it sounds in reality. Maybe it sounds like a Neve whith tubes but just a bit more transparent since it hasn´t got any input transformers...

Bernhard/

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Thu May 08, 2003 7:10 am

Hello to all!

I got a little confused with all these mics! A lot of choice nowdays! In the past there used to be 4-5 brands with super expensive products. Now there are 4-5000 brands with many cheap (but good! )products. But it is so difficult to choose!
As far as the cascade and t.bone mics are concerned: I could not find anywhere their "oficial site"... they might be good mics but I am afraid to buy anything that nobody knows who makes it, under which conditions, and probably with no customer support...
I guess for the moment I will stay with the mic I have and my small mixer and try all possible mic positions. I now live at another apartment, and my room has a quite a lot of reverbation but it is of good quality. So, maybe I could try to record with the mic a bit further away.
In my previous apartment, my room had a horrible sound! So I could only record with the mic very close to the guitar. That way, the mic was hearing only a part of the guitar's sound.
I ll do some test recordings today and tomorrow with my mic. I will post them so that you can have a listen to them and tell me what do you think.
If still I cant manage to have a descent sound, then I ll go and buy a new mic (still note sure which: Rode NT5, Rode NT1000, AKG C151B, all similarly priced).

Thank you all for contributing to this post and for providing to the rest of the PlanetZ people yours invaluable ideas and experience!

I will notify you as soon as I post the recordings

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Thu May 08, 2003 3:00 pm

Hello again!

No luck with the recordings! Although my mic (Shure BG 4.1) was supposed to be suitable for ac. guitar recordings, my recordings do not sound as I want no matter which mic position I use. The guitar sounds best with the mic pointing at the 9th fret more or less, but still not good. Furthermore, if I place the mic very close to the guitar (no matter which position) the sound is very coloured. If I place it very far away, then the signal is too low, lackind detail and the hiss is more noticeable.
I guess I need a new and better microphone. I had paid for this Shure 240 euros, 2 years ago...

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Thu May 08, 2003 5:57 pm

Again me!

Mmm, I dont know what to do with all these mics.... have you ever seen these?:
http://www.red5audio.com/
http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/jun02/arti ... d5mics.asp

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Fri May 09, 2003 11:47 am

I´m not so sure that your mic is causing you all the trouble. You mentioned earlier that the sound you get is a bit thin, dull, and a bit harsh. Well, although I never had a Behringer, it is my first suspect.

There are a lot of mics whith proximity effect when positioned too close to the source, which influences the sound. Sometimes it´s beneficial and sometimes it´s not. In your case the 20db self noise might be a problem but doesn´t necessarily has to.
In order to put it farther away to the source you´ll really need a better gain stage. No matter how good your microphone, it´s the preamp which has to "unfold" the sound again. If you have any access to any other mic, you might notice a slight improvement in regards to proximity, but the general sound will still remain... So I wouldn´t get another mic before testing that your mic is causing you all the trouble. Maybe you could carry this mic to another place, I mean to someone who has a different micpre and make a sound check...

Bernhard/

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Fri May 09, 2003 2:10 pm

Hello!

Thank you Sunshine for your ideas!

Yes, what you say seems to be the most sensible. I think I ll take my mic and guitar with me and go to a shop and try to see if my mic is to blame or the behringer mixer. I just hope there is such a shop in Athens, that would have a recording area to try mics, preamps etc.

Thank you

elisha · Post by **elisha** » Fri May 09, 2003 9:42 pm

Wow, what an incredible source of great information..... I just happened onto this topic... I experimented with 3 mics in different configs... an AKG C414, a Rode NT1, and a Studio Projects T3 tube mic... the best sound I got was putting the NT1 about 20-30 cm away about the 8th fret pointing toward the soundhole, and the T3 about 1 meter away directly in front of the guitar. I then recorded and panned the different tracks full left and right and it is the best sound I've gotten yet... oh yeah, the guitar is a steel string, solid spruce top acoustic, played in a soft, chunky, pop style with lots of melodic rhythm in the lows. When I listen to it through several different speaker sets, it sounds very natural... except maybe a little more "mid color" in the tone.

Thanks Sunshine for all the great new ideas... I'll be experimenting with those soon now! And if you're near the Zimmermann Feinkost Metzgerei stop in and tell the owners hi from Elisha's Request!

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Mon May 12, 2003 9:23 am

Hello!

I have done a test recording with my current setup and I would like you to have a listen and tell me what do you think.
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=17&0

Thank you

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Tue May 13, 2003 5:08 pm

Lets continue the topic over there http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=17&5.
I have posted there what they recommended me at Thomann's. Have a look at tell me what do you think.

Thank you!