JP8080 Super Saw

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Wed Apr 02, 2003 5:07 pm

Well, I pinpointed the strings sound I want. The JP 8080 supersaw. How the heck is it done? It's not just a bunch of detuned saws either. There's something very strange about the waveform. Way too much harmonics, almost as if it was clipped or something.. But not by distortion.. not sure what.

I've been patching away in ModIII, with 6 detunable Pulse OSC, but the problem is, if I detune, the signals start to phase each other out. (naturally) But, somehow, JP8080 Super Saw doesn't have this problem. How is this done? And well, ModIII Pulse OSC doesn't have even a tenth of the harmonics that the supersaw has.. I wonder how I would achieve that..

I got a sample of the Super Saw in action, straight from a friend's JP8080. The harmonics are so thick, it almost sounds like there's noise playing with the saw sound. (but it's probably not)

Oh well, anyway, if anyone knows any in depth details about how the supersaw thing works, please let me know. And no, I can't go buy the JP8080 because in the end, I'll need to implement the sound in a Max/MSP patch (sort of like ModIII) so definitely need to know how it "works". thnx in advance for any info.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-04-02 19:11 ]

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 4:50 am

maybe you should sync your 6 osc ?

p.parker

Michu · Post by **Michu** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:45 am

Ken,

i got curious...

could you pass the sample?

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 7:11 am

This is the file I heard.
http://gzone.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mp3/tranceriff1.mp3

Man, this is like THE sound for epic trance.
I tried doing something similar in ModIII. You can check out the audio demo at the modular patches forum. (close, but no cigar... yet)

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 10:21 am

This is a killer question.
What do I do if I want detune, but no phasing? Just can't seem to figure that out. It's definitely not possible in a scientific sense, so I'll need to find some sort of workaround.

aMo · Post by **aMo** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 12:09 pm

The Supersaw is 7 detuned saws, according to Rolands own website...

Good luck on detuning them all correctly..hehehe

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 4:03 pm

the 7 sawteeth

à la Roland are modulated en bloc, obviously therefore they don't phase out - the whole pack is shifted.
Imo it's not the amount of detune, but the constant change which makes the sound fat.
Ken, have you tried the Wavelength Europa demo ? It has something like that in the bottom left corner. Unison voices and unison spread.
Btw Europa is great for those kind of sounds

cheers, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2003-04-03 16:06 ]

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Thu Apr 03, 2003 5:48 pm

With the Pro-52 there should be possible to make such fat sounds: set the number of voices high (around 15 or so) and choose unison mode.
Only a try ...

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 5:04 am

Europa... Euro-trance
makes perfect sense

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Apr 07, 2003 11:34 am

Ken forget about the Roland, there's something called Solaris by J. Bowen out

Received my demo last night

still under the influence, Tom

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:01 am

Hi,

The Solaris also has the Unison voices and unison spread, as does the Prophet Plus...but I think there's some trick to the Roland Supersaw, I seem to remember hearing it was a lot simpler to create than we thought.

I'd love to get the exact formula myself - I'll do some more research on it, then include it as one of the new RD Modules for the Solaris and Red Dwarf if I can successfully emulate it.

-john b.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 2:47 pm

while the 'SuperSaw' seems to be in a lot of current trance hyms - not exactly my favourite direction btw

it's already somewhat worn out, according to more knowledgable sources than me.
That's why I mentioned the potential of the Solaris to bring up the next fat rave sound.
Originality is always preferable to mimicking

The Solaris is not only FAT, but also extremely expressive by it's well designed modulation handling.
The Europa has a narrower focus of sounds, but it does them extremely good and straight forward.
Imho it's on par in the 'SuperSaw' league, but the Solaris can go way beyond that.
Which is no wonder, it's a resource eating monster (an effective one, though) - and is a little more expensive.

cheers, Tom

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 3:03 pm

Hi again,

Just wanted to say, after posting last time, I quickly threw together 7 saw waves and set up some slight varied detunes for 6 of the 7...and it came darn close to that sound! I think there must be some Roland chorusing going on as well...but overall, it seemed fairly straightforward to get something akin to the sound (not exact though). It's the "exactness" you seek, however.
I'll have to go look into any Roland documents that might be around...
or, ask Assaf - he probably has it already perfected

john b

ReD_MuZe · Post by **ReD_MuZe** » Tue Apr 08, 2003 5:07 pm

y0 guys,
let me talk as a producer and not a developer...

the only thing you need to know to make these kind of sounds, is take an odd number of saw oscs, the crispier the better (for instance use the spectral osc, or the upcoming flexor NBL oscs)and detune them in a symetrical manner.. take a GOOD highshelf (usualy analog ones make the job best) and just boost away.

also take a filter that resonates nicely in the very high frequencies (like cw's multimode filter a) and emphesise the hi part with your resonance.

as a developer, yes.. there is a trick
maybe ill make a supersaw for flexor... Peace!

Ganool · Post by **Ganool** » Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:23 am

Stop doing that Red Muze... you're killing me. I want Flexor. NOW!

Carl.

Andreas-Lagoona · Post by **Andreas-Lagoona** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 6:11 pm

A supersaw for Flexor? I'd love that... I would also like to see a multiosc module with all the classic waveforms (or even a multi-wavetable-osc?). I mean, like the Uknow osc (which has Saw, Pulse and Subosc in one module) or the Prophet osc which can mix a saw, a tri and a pw square instantly.

Wavedraw seems to be one of the more interesting modules to me, by the way... =)

--Andreas

wavelength · Post by **wavelength** » Sat Apr 12, 2003 10:14 pm

my new synth "sparC" does a pretty mean supersaw, look for the "supersaw" patches in the factory presets... give it around four-voices of polyphony for the unison-stack in the presets and you'll get the idea. these patches feature 6 detuned saw-oscillators + unison... mess around with the filter cutoff and you get that coveted trance-sound (delay is always good too).

get the demo here >>>

http://www.track0.com/wavelength/shoppage.htm

cheers

-stephen

staffan2 · Post by **staffan2** » Mon May 26, 2003 3:06 pm

Ken, do you really need to know how the sound is made,
or will some samples from the JP-8080 do ??

I recommend that you check out the following url and download the
"JP 8080 Super Saw" file and load it into your STS sampler:

http://www.first-wave-music.de/downloads/downloads.htm

I think it sounds good.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Thu May 29, 2003 2:36 pm

thanx for the detail peeps. Now I have to emulate the supersaw in Max/MSP! And I have to complete that this week! Anyhow, wish me luck. I'll get the results recorded so y'all can check it out.

Great samples page by the way. thanx.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-05-29 15:40 ]

staffan2 · Post by **staffan2** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 3:58 pm

Ken, I'm looking forward to hear the result!