Hardware synths vs Scope synths vs Software synths

[fidox]

Hi !

I owned quite a lot of hardware synths before i discovered Creamware cards.
That was back in 2005
Then i switched just to Creamware cards and software VST's.
I use in my production more or less similar setup, KickMe for bassdrum or software VST and Prodyssey, Minimax for bass line or software VST.
Now, i have purchased after very long time my first hardware synth, Korg Minilogue XD module.
Very nice and powerfull synth. Not too heavy for use and quite easy for programming.
I was looking also for Behringer model D, seems to me very similar to Minimax or maybe any other synth from Scope platform ?

What i want to hear, maybe opinion on how much powerful Scope's platform synth can be, can sound like external hardware synths, maybe better and do you use them a lot or maybe more software VST or external hardware ?

[dawman]

About 6 years ago I stopped using Scope synths since hardware is more affordable, can be routed into Scopes project window and feels/sounds better.
But due to Modulars unique capabilities and great DSP sound quality I keep an instance for Synths and another for MIDI Tricks.

[Bud Weiser]

When you own CW / S|C hardware and devices, VSTis and hardware synths,- use ´em all for what they can do best and find useful combinations.

I have real vintage Minimoog D and think Minimax sounds good, even not 100% identical.
But when you had 3 Minimoog D, like I did,- you know,- also 3 original units don´t sound identical,- like it is w/ electromagnetic Hammond organs too p.ex..
Minimax comes w/ presets, basic internal FX and can be used polyphonic (if needed),- so it´s a welcome addition to my Minimoog D.
But NI Monarch is too though ...

I appreciate there´s Prodyssey in SCOPE synth assortment and even I´m aware there are also KORG Collection and others offering ARP Odyssey emulations.
I don´t have the original, so it´s welcome for me,- and SpaceF´s Prodyssey CV version makes it a unique emulation !

I also think, when creating polyphonic analogish bread and butter patches, BlueSynth is great.
And I appreciate to have Profit 5 and ProTone in the ballpark because I sold my Prophet 5 rev3 long time ago,- and Profit 5 comes w/ basic FX and extended polyphony on demand.
I don´t know any Prophet 5 VSTi sounding better than Profit 5 ...

And there´s ZARG Prowave and WC Pro One offering more options when it comes to Prophet 5 and Pro One emulations.
But I prefer stock and optional S|C SCOPE devices because ZARG might introduce all kind of audible artefacts and much too slow behaviour when changing patches (via MIDI).
Zarg Prowave, WC Pro One v3.0.2, Ambient v3 sc, Orion Custom v3 sc and Dark Star v3 are the exceptions.
They work better than the big Zarg synths, but nonetheless, it´s all patch dependend.
It´s especially annoying in live gigging situations as it is sometimes in the studio too.

Layering Kurzweil PC3 poly VA synth patches w/ SCOPE synths incl. Lightwave and Vectron (-Player) sounds excellent while a KURZ PC3 is an excellent MIDI controller for that purpose too.
Layering Oberheim Xpander w/ Bluesynth, Profit5 or Zarg Prowave is fat, needs 6 voices only,- which is perfect for most SCOPE synths leaving enough DSP headroom for more/other devices in same project !

The biggest problem w/ SCOPE synths for me is the MIDI CC assignment storage and recall which is far from being perfect unfortunately.
Limited polyphony sometimes too, but then, when I need more polyphony, I can use VST and layer.

And, the grass isn´t always greener on the other sides.
There are other issues w/ VST,- like many 64Bit versions and most of VST3 versions don´t respond to MIDI program changes at all.
Unusable for gigging !

I still love owning a 15DSP CW PCI card and XITE-1 and use the stuff,- even I hope for some bug fixes and improvements all day and can´t wait for SCOPE v7.1 !



Bud

[nebelfuerst]

The answer to me is not so easy. You want to get a certain sound, so you choose the easiest/cheapest way to get it.
Scope synths are great for basslines or lead or unique sounds.
For strings or piano I use hardware synths.
VST sometimes provide some unique sounds, too. But the VST world is quite buggy, which can kill creativity.

[fidox]

But due to Modulars unique capabilities and great DSP sound quality I keep an instance for Synths and another for MIDI Tricks.

I have Modular 3 and Flexor, but didn't give them a lot of attention before

[fidox]

When you own CW / S|C hardware and devices, VSTis and hardware synths,- use ´em all for what they can do best and find useful combinations.

Great answer !
Yes, i know.
I'm looking for some new inspiration.
Didn't produce a lot lately

[fidox]

But the VST world is quite buggy, which can kill creativity.

Yeah !
Those plugins, which i use, are quite stable and without a problems.

[yayajohn]

First step - get money!, as much as you can by doing whatever you can that makes the most money. Try to look for a job that doesn't suck.
Second step - convince your wife that you "need" new gear for mental health purposes and blah blah blah etc etc.

Echoing what the others have said. Imho I'm happiest with a combination of VST, Scope and hardware.
VST's for piano/guitars, Samplers etc. Some effects too.
Scope - Multi Use - Xite is my routing hub, loads of great effects. My favorite synths are Ocean Swift synths and CWM's Harmonia
Hardware - for me having a dedicated hardware synth for pads etc with high polyphony is worth it. Saves the hassle of high DSP count and high CPU for VST's. I have a DSI Prophet Rev2 and love it. Lots of great high poly synth options these days for under $2k
I have a Behringer model D and a Neutron and they sound pretty good. Can't really tell a difference in the sound compared to the Minimax though. (16 poly on the Minimax with Xite-1)
Being able to wiggle the knobs is a draw towards hardware but as a keyboard player I don't find myself doing that a whole lot using mostly the mod wheel or pedal.
Over the years I have come to believe if there is a certain type of sound/feature you really desire like fat analog, or authentic piano/multi use keyboard(Montage etc)., or a serious Scope-aholic like me then don't settle for something you are almost satisfied with. Save your money and buy the Xite-1 or Moog-One or Montage 8 or just get all 3 and live in absolute musical heaven

[dawman]

Modular was my EGTR before but now I use Zebra which actually smokes other VSTi's in a live scenario.
Its envelopes are really fierce, better than recently made hardware, vintage is best but it's company dependent.
It's a punchy synth too.
Good enough that I could finally give Solaris a break. I was beating that thang up way too much.

[valis]

When Scope came out, plugins just sounded way too clinical and cost too much CPU time. Now everything is fine in the onboard realm, but workflows are completely different. As someone who has Maschine Studio, Push2, a variety of touch devices (including iPads) and a bevy of midi controllers, I can find the best combo of native tools to suit a given result. I have applied this to the visual realm as well now...

Hardware however has its own feel when I use it, the controls are really only approached to this level of usability (in terms of both User Experience/UX and User Interface/UI) when the controller picks up dedicated functionality automatically and maps it to logical places consistently. Maschine, Push etc are much more intuitive but still require a lot of knowledge about how to get around in the interface as there's too much functionality. Something like Console 1 is closer (and better than say Mackie Control or etc because of limited use and therefore core functionality for a given control is much more fixed), but still not like a lot of the hardware I enjoy. In fact my preference to reaching for a single control and having it do what I expect is exactly why I have so many controllers for native use as well. SO the interface and latency of a tool (or non-realtime/nonlinear workflow perhaps) is what dictates how results 'sound' in the end. Again this applies in the visual realm as well when I do those things.

And Scope bridges both with the latency of hardware, so I will really have to consider an Xite box when my cards start showing their age more (here's to hoping that's not soon!). We've covered this discussion a lot here.

Btw I found Solaris to be a good tool to get 'classical' synth sounds as John has modelled so much of the sound of synths of years past. Being able to combine filters & oscs from different classics in the Solaris has also kept me from lusting for a lot of gear I might have otherwise wanted. Solaris brings its own tone to the game in the end as well, so it's the best of all worlds without much in terms of downsides. But I never would have tried to use Zebra in the same way, I tend to use native tools when I want to make a quick part that I'll bounce, process, throw into Kontakt or another sampler and get the many layers of envelopes applied to filter & amp. This is certainly do-able with my outboard, but even with my studio routing fixed and well known it can take much longer to get the same results. So again for me, the process & interface tends to dictate what I turn to for results.

The one thing to really point out is that we have so many options now. In addition to free & limited versions of software we have a pretty robust market that offers tools across the pricing spectrum (and with increasingly frequent sales), Scope DSP cards can be put into a functioning 10 yr old PC and bought for about the same price as used hardware, and with everyone moving to native stuff like Ableton these days hardware can be found aplenty too. So for someone who is getting into the game, it's probably never been a better time to have access to the tools you not only need but want to fiddle with. For someone who wants to stand out from the crowd, it's also going to be much more down to time spent investing in skills and technique as well as ability, over simply being able to fund collecting the necessary hardware as with decades past.

[dawman]

https://soundcloud.com/user-552944388/zebra-egtr-1

Here’s Zebra doing guitars.
Synths are even better.

[dante]

I use what sounds best for the instrument being imitated. Shreddage 2 and Diezel VH4 amp for lead guitar, Shreddage 3 and Softube Marshall for clean strat surf chords (or Bias FX Amp on guitars already recorded amped), Jaco Orange Tree and Gallien Kruger for fretless bass, Toontracks for drums, John Bowen or Reason RE for string pads, protone / minimax/ profit5 for Leads, Reason Friktion and Softube amp for electric violin, Obsession OBx for synth pads, Royal Bassist and Ampeg SVT for Bass, etc etc.

Sound first, platform / affordability second.

[valis]

And on that note I might add that I rarely seek something to replicate any instrument in its normal setting. The use use of drums (breaks, single hits or synthesized) that I prefer turns them into something that no drum sounds like in person, even more so than your typical mixing engineer. A physical modelling instrument better have more range to its parameters than just modeling a flute, because i want to hear sounds that play off of the known while tapping arenas that extend well beyond the range of the original thing being modeled.

In fact the modeling of a thing makes sense, because we take something known and measure and attempt to recreate or imitate it. But this is done to inform and illuminate the processes that might go to making the capacity to emulate possible, and I prefer emulations that can go well beyond these limitations for they are typically artificial when it comes to a new implementation. Of course implementations have their own limits based on the fundamental tech being used...so finding those boundaries can be a lot of fun.

Which is also to say, that in our craft there's so many approaches it's great we have a place where we can all meet and find enough in common to share our enjoyment of these things.

[Bud Weiser]

https://soundcloud.com/user-552944388/zebra-egtr-1

Here’s Zebra doing guitars.
Synths are even better.

Killer patch and excellent playing !
Did you edit a patch or is it your´s from scratch ?

Is it Zebra2 (HZ ?) only or does it run thru several additional FX and amp sim(s) ?

I´d like to check that out,- really !



Bud

[dawman]

Thanks Budweiser, brotha’ of Michelob.

I added a custom ambient Oscillator that adds noise for velocity release, then a distortion module because the Shape/Crunch module needed some sustain.
Did this on a 50 dollar board with no PBend as my Physis is getting new knob/fader/button board, and new 3 wheel assembly.
Grace notes help in the realism.

It’s just lowly little Zebra2.
I only have about 8 presets I use.
Super impressive CS80 sounds, big fat bastards.

On an FC7 all the way back is a delay with doubling timings.
Full forward kicks in AUX setting increasing delay amount and loose delays (larger msec.)
Scope FX.

You hear can my mistakes of FX when the delay overhangs notes.
But I’m playing power chords left hand and leads on right.

Zebra Oscillators allow scaling on them.
4 graphic points across the keys, decrease lowest segments until leads are above the power chords.
Can’t do that in hardware.
I’ll do the CS80 I made, chorus/ensemble tabs Included.
Separate oscillator glide too. I nagged him and Bowen because synths pre 2010 were wimpy on portamento.
Anyone from the vintage days hears that immediately.

[dawman]

What about this sloppy FAT BASTARD...

https://soundcloud.com/user-552944388/f-1

[fidox]

First step - get money!, as much as you can by doing whatever you can that makes the most money. Try to look for a job that doesn't suck.

True !

[fidox]

Thank you very much for your opinions and a lot of informations !

[3harmonic]

scope synths sound better than the majority of software synths.
even if it doesn't sound entirely analogue, it has a consistency and accuracy to the sound that really puts it up with other digital classics like the Ex5, Korg Z1, Nord Lead etc.

[Bud Weiser]

What about this sloppy FAT BASTARD...

https://soundcloud.com/user-552944388/f-1

The ENV slope of that resonating filter sounds like hardware.
What is it ?
Zebra 2 too ?

I always thought Zebra 2 is an excepton in VST world.
Sometimes I had the impression, in VST world, I´d need just only Zebra,- some virtual ROMpler like Omnisphere and a bundle like NI Komplete giving me options to buy some 3rd party stuff for Kontakt ... Rhodes, Wurli, Clav etc..
I say "Komplete" because I own since version 2 special editon,- Kontakt alone might be enough too when there´s Zebra and SCOPE already.

I gave all the other Uhe VSTis a try and don´t need tons of vintage emulations.
Zebra was and is the real deal in VST synth world.



Bud