Scope VS VST's

[yayajohn]

Ok that's some great real world feedback from a pro. Thanks Greg

Dan

[astroman]

Greg is correct that the TC Fireworx isn't technically necessary
but Jimmy's hint to the unit is a good one nevertheless (I quickly browsed the specs on their legacy site)
the operation concept is a very clear one and processing options exceed their Powercore stuff
I have a Powercore myself which in fact partly triggered the Pro Tools TDM purchase to get access to those sounds

cheers, Tom

[siriusbliss]

Even U-He is always dealing with CPU for their VST's, which makes the point that Scope's DSP approach is still superior.

http://youtu.be/QnHof-2bIfA

[astroman]

true words, Urs looks strangely helpless in this context...
on Scope it was more than a decade ago, can't even remember the year

cheers, Tom

[yayajohn]

Great video Greg and an insight into the VST developer side of things. There is a price for everything in the computer. Sounds to me like synths like diva and such can sound great but you better have an extremely powerful computer or you will not get much out of it. Personally I would rather just stick to the synths on my Xite-1 and keep the VST's to what is absolutely necessary especially when recording multiple tracks on a DAW. There are VST's that Scope can't do and that is fine because as we all know a good mixture of the two seems to work the best overall.
Running the Prodyssey right up to 16 voices and changing presets without glitches is just awesome. What a great synth.

btw: Tom what is Urs?

Dan

[hubird]

the name of the guy presented in the beginning of the clip...

[yayajohn]

ahh, ok thanks

[zerocrossing]

Even U-He is always dealing with CPU for their VST's, which makes the point that Scope's DSP approach is still superior.

http://youtu.be/QnHof-2bIfA

Well, superior for some things. CPU is a resource, but so it DSP. Running out of it using native plug ins is no less frustrating than running out of it on DSP. If you're clever a lot can be done with a few instruments especially if you know creative automation.

I put the alpha of RePro-1 on my machine and for audio rate modulation at higher resonance type sounds (one of the things I do as a stress test when I demo VSTis that do it) it's clear that RePro-1 is better than ProTone. Considerably better. Is Zarg's Pro-One better? Not sure. One thing Urs said was that RePro-1 is going to be a monophonic plugin, and I'm sure that's because he knows his plug in will suck CPU cycles like they're going out of style. But if that type of sound is the centerpiece of your tune, you will buy and use the plug in or find a Pro One in good condition. So, ProTone does trump RePro-1 in the fact that I can get lots of voices, plus effects and if I don't go for more extreme types of sounds, it's very good... ...but RePro-1 is great and it's not even done yet.

I have been using native plug ins for a while and now I'm fairly deep into Scope stuff, though I don't have anything but all the Scope instruments and what came with 5.1. I can say with high confidence that for pure sonic quality that native has caught up and in some cases surpassed their counterparts. CPUs are always advancing... The XITE-1 has been the same for how long? It's only going to get more level as time goes on. I'm not trying to shoot down Sonic Core. We all know why it's great so I won't preach to this choir. It's pretty stagnent though. When you see the creative things being developed in the native plug in world, it's a bit sad that there are no similar things for Scope.

That's not how I look at it though. I just wanted a kickass wavetable synth with some good VA and lots of flexibility. Scope blows away anything on the market including the Prophet 12, Virus, Ultranova, Blofeld, etc. I guess I could have gone with a Prophet VS but that would have cost as much as an XITE-1 and had no where near the flexibility. So when looked at as a meta instrument, like I look at it, the XITE-1 is pretty kick ass.

[Mikael-R]

Did you run scope in 96 khz or 44 khz when you did the comparison?

[astroman]

... I have been using native plug ins for a while and now I'm fairly deep into Scope stuff, though I don't have anything but all the Scope instruments and what came with 5.1. I can say with high confidence that for pure sonic quality that native has caught up and in some cases surpassed their counterparts.

any example where a VST really delivers superior sound quality ?
I'm not thinking 'oversampling' which is what Heckmann is probably using a lot - also present in all of the 'better' IOS synths
an extended top end may be nice, but the most significant perception is in the lower mids
which are the proverbial achilles heel of VST and DIVA is no exception from this rule

listen to a Neve 1073 or an old Telefunken Preamp - where do they really stand out ?
where's the beef of a Moog transistor cascade from ? classic synthesizer filterchips ?
it's all about definition in the lower midrange
check it blindly on monitors:
the one with the best low mid performance will be the most expensive one - and attributed 'most musical' - it's a safe bet

I could not name even 1 single VST Synth that comes close to what Scope delivers in that domain
it's not a coincidence that Sean Costello worked for Analog Devices before he started his Valhalla DSP business
for some obscure reason Scope is very good in the essential part of the spectrum
I'd choose it any time, but for efficiency I frequently end with the iPad - but almost never with VST

CPUs are always advancing...

maybe they do, but as those Operating Systems 'advance' too... few is left
IOS is a good example what a relatively humble CPU design can achieve soundwise - if there's no such OS in the way
Palm's PPG versions under IOS easily compete with UHe in soundquality - in a battery driven pocket device...

... It's pretty stagnent though. When you see the creative things being developed in the native plug in world, it's a bit sad that there are no similar things for Scope. ...

there are technical limitations for large memory based operations concerning spectral stuff that Celemony and Zynaptiq do...
but beyond that special domain I don't see native devices that triggers a 'must have' with me
most products are about emulation of whatever old, expensive, legendary or whatever gear
(the 'you can have that for bargain' paradigm... it looks like it, so it must sound like it)

audio processing is a pretty stagnent business anyway as few things about hearing have changed

cheers, Tom

[borg]

Recently I bought some VSTs, as I'm on the move a lot lately. Most of them in christmas or black friday deals, so it didn't break the bank. Some SPL and Brainworx, Soundtoys bundle, but most remarkable were the cheap, unknown developpers. SKnote Disto (distressor) blows me away for €29, Klanghelm MJUC for €25 sounds real nice too.
Dexed is a very nice free DX7 (yeah, I have TF7 as well, also very nice).

I use everything I can get my hands on, if it makes noise. Talented people make great music with whatever they can (not implying I am...).

Zealots...

[darkrezin]

I could not name even 1 single VST Synth that comes close to what Scope delivers in that domain

There are plenty... Vaz modular, Xils lab stuff, Cypher, Strobe etc. FM and sync behaviour often more realistic and less alias-prone than Scope too. I like Scope, especially for the low latency, polyphonic modular and wavetable stuff, and it has some great instruments in its own right (mostly ones which use oversampling) but I think being fanatical about these things is a mistake and at this point quite misinformed IMHO.

[fra77x2]

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/94625

[Sounddesigner]

I could not name even 1 single VST Synth that comes close to what Scope delivers in that domain

often more realistic and less alias-prone than Scope too.

but I think being fanatical about these things is a mistake and at this point quite misinformed IMHO.

Those two comments are bogus and i'll explain why.


So your saying you are entitled to your opinion and that your opinion is informed/correct when you state some Native plugins like VAZ modular, etc are just as good as SCOPE and often more realistic, but if someone states otherwise that they prefer SCOPE you state they're not entitled to their opinion and you state they are misinformed and misleading? So if someone doesn't share your taste for Native then they are inferior to you in judgement? That's the strange KVR-Native-fanboy-extremists arguments I don't understand and what invalidates their claims of Native being great to me. The moment you try to bully and force your opinion you invalidate it cause if you can't sell those products you love off their own merits then they must not truly be all that good, and I suspect you're aware they're not that great or you wouldn't have to condescend, force-feed and bully. The moment you lift yourself up in some condescending way as the 'expert over all' you've invalidated your claims. Some Native-fanboy-extremist try extremely hard to dictate their taste for everyone and when these Native fanboys hear anyone disagree with them they get extremely hostile and almost always try to force their opinions on others by bashing. If you have to force-feed someone what you want them to hear it obviously doesn't taste too good, and I believe those who do force-feed are aware it doesn't taste good and that many disagree about Native. Native is just a mediocre and supplementary platform to many many people, let those many have their voice so the true reality can be reflected.

It's usually a VERY vocal minority trying to distort reality by blocking out everyone elses opinions just to portray a false picture that everyone loves Native plugins and that Native has caught up. The moment a thread pops up in music forums about dsp plugins and someone in that thread says dsp is better a certain group of Native fanboys will jump in that thread and troll it out of existence, and even get to the point where they will go to dsp lovers home a dsp forum like this one and try to bully people out of their opinions . That's like a muslim going to a Christian church to force convert people and if they don't listen they are called blind, unintelligent, etc wich is insanely silly. To go to someone's home to force convert is silly, obviously if I thought Native was so good I would've chose it rather than XITE-1 and I would be hanging on a Native forum like U-he, NI, Xils lab, etc. My choice tells you my taste and what I think since naturally I'm gonna mostly buy and mostly use what I think is better, cause this is the natural way musicians and composers operate. Likewise with those who choose Kurzweill, Kyma, Bricasti, Eventide, etc are you going to go to their forums and tell them they're fanatics/blind/misinformed and misleading because they prefer those products?

When Native-fanboy-extremists shout loudly from roof-tops constantly how awesome and superior Native is to try and drown out other peoples voices and go into other platforms forum's threads (their home) trying to bully and drown out it invalidates their claims of greatness. Obviously they don't even believe Native is that good themselves or they wouldn't be using such DESPARATE tactics. I don't jump into U-he or Native-Instruments threads screaming SCOPE is just as good or superior in a authoritarian way simply cause there is no need for that and it's offensive to those who love those products.

I like VAZ Modular a lot to but VAZ Modular sounds harsh like most of the famouse name Native synths.


EDITED

[darkrezin]

It's all opinions man, if you want to spend so long angrily typing out rants in voicing yours then go ahead and be my guest. I can't even be bothered to read this kind of thing though.

[dante]

I don't even see why its VST vs DSP. I combine Scope synths with Native synths then master through Scope @96KHz, so everything gets the Scope sheen, native or Scope.

VST through DSP and you have the variety of VST plus the sound of DSP - the best of both worlds.

[Mikael-R]

From my subjective point of view, greatness seems to be pouring out of my Xite like milk and honey without much effort. I have never experienced anything like it from VST's and VA synths, but rather the opposite. In 44 kHz mode it's really great, in 96 kHz mode it's like a dream.
It wouldn't be far fetched to believe that some hardware and software companies do post in forums to keep people away from this technology. Maybe they understand that if this technology got more traction and the price droped it could explode very quickly.

[dawman]

I use to think Micro$oft & App£€ synths sucked.
Thought Native sucked.
That was 2008.
Revisited in 2014 and bought Zebra2 HZ and Omnisphere 2.1.
Also bought Satin for authentic Tape Flange.
Zebra2 HZ with Diva Filters is excellent.
Omnisphere rarely gets used.
Satin sounds great.

But TC Fireworx does what Celmos Tape Echos did but better.
Its DSP powered.
1st block gets a single tap delay.
2nd block reverb.
3rd block gets shimmer. LFO or Chorus/Pitch Shift.

Reasons ars this.
Scope FX sound great for modulation and pitch.
Native is comparative.
But for time based FX like Reverb or Delay hardware.
Native sounds like it is behind the speaker in a cabinet/stage monitor.
Scope Reverbs sound like they are inside of the cone. Better, but still
lacking full presence.
Hardware is in your face.

I wish I had a scientific explanation.
I trust my ears.