Crappy sound Cubase->Pulsar->Wavelab

freddan · Post by **freddan** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:11 am

Hi!

Doing mixdowns now for my new 4-track demo but think I'm getting a crappy sound when I listen to the CD om my Hifi-system. Metallic in some way, the warmth is gone.

Thought I figured everything out on how to deal with these things but think I should check with you guys so I got everything OK. Right now it feels hopeless...

I'm using Cubase 5.1r1, Pulsar I 3.01 and Wavelab 4.0d.

When I'm recording stuff TO Cubase I'm using the ASIO1-Fit Dest 64. Everything is recorded in 32 bits in Cubase (except the 16 bits samples I'm using). Out FROM Cubase I'm using the ASIO1-Fit Source 64 which is routed in the Pulsar-mixer to Mix. Mix L-R is connected to 24 Bit Wave Dest 1 which goes into Wavelab where I Record in 24 Bit alt.

The wave-file is then processed with Waves C4 and L1 and after that dithered to 16 bits before it's rendered and burned to CD.
Is everything looking OK or am I doing something wrong here??? All suggestions are welcome. Think I should get a descent sound...

/freddan

[ This Message was edited by: freddan on 2002-06-25 09:11 ]

[ This Message was edited by: freddan on 2002-06-25 09:12 ]

kimgr · Post by **kimgr** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:44 am

Get a new HiFi system ?

Sorry, couln't resist ;-P

Kim.

freddan · Post by **freddan** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:26 am

Well... If that helped the sound on the demo it would be an easy way out... Though I have a fairly nice Hifi system already

emenelton · Post by **emenelton** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:45 am

The wave-file is then processed with Waves C4 and L1 and after that dithered to 16 bits before it's rendered and burned to CD.
Do you dither during the C4 & L1 step or after it?

freddan · Post by **freddan** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:51 am

I select C4 and L1 in the Master Effect slots. Then UV22 HR (setting Normal 16) in the Dithering section. I click Render and save the new wave as 16 bit.

emenelton · Post by **emenelton** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:00 am

Doesn't the L1 have dither and noise shaping settings? What do you have those set at?

Databoy · Post by **Databoy** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:03 am

Unfortunately it is impossible for anyone to determine why the sound you're getting is unacceptable to you, but some more information might help get closer.

What is your source material? Samples, VST's, a voice recording from a microphone going through a mixer to your soundcard, a guitar on a DI box, etc., what kind of mic if any??? What are you using to monitor during your mixdown, nearfields, headphones? What are you doing for EQ if anything? What type of music? Are you using any effects like reverb, and what/how are you applying it? Why do you choose to apply the Waves plugins, and what are you trying to achieve with them? Your mix will never be any better than what your source material is.

Maybe post a sample of your recording and get some feedback.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:05 am

How bad is the sound? Are you hearing clipping, distortion etc. or just AM radio quality? Maybe you can post a piece of audio you did in the music forum, for trouble shooting...

freddan · Post by **freddan** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:47 am

Yep, I understand it's hard to give feedback on something you haven't heard. My basic thought was to get a confirmation that the Pulsar setup looked OK and that I handled the audio correctly bitwise so I didn't do anyhting stupid there. But I guess I'm alright with my setup then?

Otherwise I have no clipping or other distortion in any way. There should be no problems with the equipment I'm using. I'm not applying any dithering using the L1 but only in the Master section.It sounds OK but I don't reach that warmth I want.

freddan · Post by **freddan** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:09 pm

OK, put a file in the Music forum for you to listen to.

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=17&0

Databoy · Post by **Databoy** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:57 pm

The link to your song doesn't work.

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:32 pm

Never been satisfied with Cubase sound engine and feel it doesn't represent sound wave realistically.I've been arguing this on internet for years.Wavelab has same sound engine.
Would like to know peoples views on Creamware's recoding system TripleDAT etc.Heard sound quality is supposed to be better.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:30 pm

It sounds wierd though.. It's like, because that certain bit got rounded off to another bit.. then all of a sudden all your "warmth" is gone?? If so, I'd say it's in the mix or it happened during mastering. Extreme mixes seem to have such problems. Or, it could be that your ears just got used to the 32 bit version. Either way, if the essence of the tune isn't lost, never mind the miniscule, microscopic details. It's not like your dithering process replayed your key phrase.

Anyway, this is me just talking from what I know. First, fix the link to your tune. Actually, an mp3 probably won't be legitamate because we're talking about such miniscule details?

freddan · Post by **freddan** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:25 pm

OK, I fixed the link. Sorry about that, first time I post a tune here.

It's probably like most of you guys say, that it's in the mix or that I'm to picky. An interesting point was that this can happen when the project get complex and that's what I've felt too.

I started to think the other day that the EQ in Cubase maybe isn't the best to use quality wise, but I've heard others say the opposite so...

ernest@303.nu · Post by **ernest@303.nu** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:28 pm

Does the dithered-to-16-bit-mix already sound bad in your studio, or only when played back through your hifi?
Does the mix sound equally bad when the CD is played through your computer's CD-ROM player over your studio speakers? (preferably digitally extracted from the audio CD)?
Does the mix sound bad when played back directly through your hifi-system from your 24-bit D/A Pulsar convertor? (using a long extension cable or - even better - when you move the hifi or just that CD-player to the studio)
It's possible that there's a physical problem with the burned audio CD, so the error correction of the hifi CD player is working slightly over it's limit? I've had the same thing, on some CD-players the sound was harsh and digital. The problem almost disappeared by using another brand of CD-R's and burning at 1x speed.

hope this helps

freddan · Post by **freddan** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:44 pm

Actually I don't think that the 16-bit-mix sounds bad in my studio, just when I burnt it on CD and plays it on my Hifi system.

I will for sure try your recommendations starting with the extension cable. Which CD-R, CD-RW do you recommend?

ernest@303.nu · Post by **ernest@303.nu** » Wed Jun 26, 2002 2:33 am

just try some brands to see what your CD-burner likes most for breakfast..... and what the results are on other CD players. For some reason 'brand X' might work well on burner A, while the same 'brand X' CD, burned on burner B, gives problems in other CD-players. Especially worth checking if you plan to do some mass-mailing of your demo-CD!

If demo reproduction is done by a specialized company give them the wave-files in DATA-format (if the file reads from CD you can be sure there's 100% accuracy) and let them do the conversion to redbook audio.

six_wax · Post by **six_wax** » Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:36 am

I had the same experience with alot of the work I did in VST/32 sourced out of Pulsar --the synths just sounded tinny whne recorded and burned. Things sounded ok prior to tracking into the VST sound engine from Pulsar (going to direct to the outs), but something about those synths through those drivers into that engine made tinny and thin tone. I'nve since experimented with other sound sources (software and hardware) and not found them to be so problematic...

...totally subjective, but perhaps you're not alone...

freddan · Post by **freddan** » Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:40 am

Thanks! All sort of feedback and thoughts make me feel better. This weekend I will be locked up in the studio to try to change some of the sounds and EQ.

[ This Message was edited by: Need on 2002-07-02 20:21 ]

freddan · Post by **freddan** » Tue Jul 02, 2002 7:44 pm

Hey!

Just wanted to say that I've tried/trying your mixing suggestions and must say I'm getting closer, thanks!

Just want to raise the initial question ones more. I would like a confirmation that I'm using the right devices when routing the audio in Pulsar and doing it right. This is how my setup looks:

The external sound comes in to Pulsar through "ADAT Source" (using an A8). This is routed together with SW synths in the Big Mixer to "ASIO1-Flt Dest 64" (using Cubase). I'm doing all recording in 32 bit float except some 16 bit wav samples.

From Cubase I'm routing sends out to external effects (going from "ASIO1-Flt Source 64" to "ADAT Dest". The Fx sound comes back through "ADAT Source" to Big Mixer and is added to the Mix.

The rest of the recorded sound from Cubase goes through "ASIO1-Flt Source 64" to Big Mixer and is added to the mix.

The Mix L+R is sent to "24 Bit Wave Dest 1" that goes into Wavelab where I'm recording in 24 bit alt. The wave file is then processed (mastered) and saved as 16 bit (dithering applied). The file is burnt to CD.

For monitor resaon the wave is played back in Wavelab through "Wave Source 1" to ADAT Dest.

Hope you managed to read through all this

Do you have any comments or suggestions about this setup? Would like to add a screen shot from Pulsar so you see how it looks but I don't think I can attach files here...