Sampled Pianos Comparison

[braincell]

I have tried a lot of sampled pianos. Recently they added a couple to the Komplete lineup called The Maverick and The Grandeur, I assume based on a Steinway and a Bosendorfer. I thought they sounded good, sounded better than the previous NI pianos yet they seemed to get easily buried in the mix (as pianos tend to do). Then I decided to compare the same sequence on the VSL Imperial. Immediately it became clearly apparent that the VSL piano was much better. It comes through in the mix and it sounds more solid. By sounding solid, I mean it sounds like you are there next to the piano, not listening to some recording of a piano.

I know some of you prefer Pianoteq. I tried it and it sounds digital to me. I like the performance aspect, the physical modeling ability to adapt but the tone isn't as good (for me).

[kensuguro]

Ya, I think it depends on the tone you're looking for. I use pianoteq all the time, but while at times it's actually in the mix, most times I only use it as a transitory phase to just jot stuff down or to lay down harmony, and very quickly take it out of the mix.

Sampled pianos are tough to deal with. I feel to go down that path you'd need to be constantly auditioning new ones. And even if you find one you like, it may or may not work within a mix. IMHO, seems each mix requires variations on the way you record the piano, and so it makes concocting the right sound from samples quite difficult. (though close/mid/ambient combos make it more feasible) For me, it's a question of allocation of resources.. mainly money. For me, it just costs too much to pursue the ultimate piano sample library, versus the number of times the piano is actually featured in a mega critical piece.

Also, aside from the sound itself, solo or as it sits in a mix, I'm quite picky about how it responds, and unfortunately I don't think there are many sample libraries that behave like I want it to. I've had many years with pianoteq, so I've learned how it behaves, and to a large degree, it suites sensibilities carried over from acoustics. I'm sure there are sample libs out there that may work, or perhaps will work with some tweaking. I just don't have the time and money to be out hunting for it. It's exhausting I know, because I spent years hunting. I'd say Pianoteq for me placates the hunt just enough, though I still need to consciously keep myself from expanding the hunt to better controllers and such.

[dante]

I was impressed by the SoundIron Emotional Piano (Kontakt port to Reason)

https://soundcloud.com/soundiron/david- ... onal-piano

For $100 its another example of the low end of the market challenging the value-for-price ratio.

ok its only a sample set from one Kawai and maybe no a zillion velocity layers, but gee its good value

[Nestor]

Uffff, this is the million dollars question... I agree with most of what Ken says. There is a piano for every important piece of music. Most pianos today, are good, very good, exelent, or at least decent pianos. It all depends on the kind of use you are going to do with them in your music.

[Neil B]

I'm interested in this as I'm thinking of buying Alicias Keys. Any reviews on that package would be helpful....
Neil

[ronnie]

As a piano player I can tell you that no sampled piano is 100% spot on. There are too many variables to sample. In particular, the resonant frequencies of the overtones due to pedal position and keys held down without striking.
It is only when really playing with nuance that this becomes really apparent, especially on solo pieces.

I have just about all sampled pianos out there. The Kontakt samples are very good, including Alicia Keys (more of a pop sound) and the Vienna Grand (sort of bright). The Erstwhile Bardstown Imperial Bosendorfer 290 is still very good after some 12 years!

You need to play them and feel what is best. They sound good but you need to feel how they play according to your dynamics. A good graded and weighted piano keyboard controller is absolutely necessary.

A lot can be done by moving and turning on and off the mic positions and the room ambience. Some pianos sound better in mono cause other than the piano player that's how it's heard outside of whatever the room does and the audience position.

I find that you can make a piano sit in the mix best by sculpting the eq and ambience to work with the particular material in those parts of the mix where it has a role, whether as accompaniment or solo. No one setting is going to work throughout the mix to really have it clean, clear and well placed.

It's best to situate a mono or near mono signal in the panorama according to the stage position and leave it there. Good pan placement (not extreme left or right and not with treble right and bass left) in the "cube" with the right eq at the right time for all the pitched instruments will let the piano sit properly and not get smeared around.

Reverb on the piano and too much ambience is a no-no. If the player needs any of that to feel comfortable while tracking, put it in his phones and record a dry signal. Mix using an ambience processor like the SCOPE Ambience Processor EQ automated under MIDI control assignment from your DAW or use the free VST SHEPPi (which is a pretty spot on implementation of Bob Katz's K-processor) but doesn't do automation (I think). Leave the horizontal position alone and push and pull the piano front to back in the field.

Piano has always been tough because of the broad spectrum. Anything else can affect it and it can smear up anything else! The placement of the piano in an orchestra or big band is critical. That's the hint: placement and dynamics. With piano placement is a set and forget but not dynamics like eq or ambience.

Compressors will kill the dynamics of a piano and ducking or side-chaining can do the same and really screw up the volume as well.

This is what works for me. I usually sit a near mono piano mid-center left in the field with the bass and treble ever so slightly separated. Cut conflicting eq on the piano or the other instruments in particular sections of the material to have everything sit clean (boosting is not a good idea here) and pull the piano up front or slide it back on the stage. You can always add a touch of verb at the end to blend if necessary. Keep everything automated and save the control track!!!!!

Don't forget square one: Big fat chords with duplicated intervals will blur things up royally in a mix. The player's dynamics, register and chord choices are the most important thing! Too much pedal is impossible to get rid of. RECORD THE MIDI so you can edit these things when the keyboard player is not around!!!!!!!!!

[Neil B]

Excellent reply.
Neil

[kensuguro]

Jimmy will give you an earful about pianos too. where's he when ya need him. lol

edit:
wow, ronnie, sheppi.. that's kick ass. I've been wanting to mess with k-stereo for a while. Kind of sad to find out it's just a sort of mangled ping pong delay tho..

[ronnie]

Yeah, the ping ain't bad, it's the pong that'll get you. Looking for magic when so much can be done with the faders! I prefer the SC Ambience Processor for that K cube idea, the visuals help a lot and the eq is on the same panel. I'm gonna try the Mix Strip for this also.

[dawman]

I think one must take PianoTeq Pro and just make it sound the way you want.
Mic Placement is crucial for realistic sounding.
I don't use a single preset from the factory and surely do not use the lame effects either.
Even the EQ is destructive to the quality of the sound.

My guess is Modartt has great programmers and engineers and an Oscilloscope only gets you so far.

Alicia Keys has a great sound, as does Virtual Grand aka. VGP 1/2/3.
But there's also Rosewood Grand by Orange Tree.
It has sostenuto and a very unique sounding harp and resonance factor making it hard to distinguish from a real Piano if recorded and played right.

PianoTeq really shines though as I have other great instruments all in a single package.
Rhodes and Wurlitzer are excellent if tweaked properly, the D6 Clavinet is really good and can mute varying degrees up and down the keyboard and has extra notes so it's an extension of a D6.
Tubular Bells, Chimes, Steel Drums.
All run on a 1.8GHz Atom based laptop too with high polyphony.

But their forum is full of dickheads who post MIDI files and pretend it's a "performance."
Then experts who refuse to admit their wrong extending threads into infinity.
The little suck asses pat each other on the back for being great "performers" but I can hear the perfection which to me is imperfect from a natural sense of performing.

A real bunch or Nerd Sacks.

[dante]

Sounds entertaining must mosey on over to check out the action (of the nerds, not the keys)

[ronnie]

Hilarious!

[kensuguro]

ya definitely, very accurate description by Jimmy. lol

[dawman]

There was one guy who started a thread with Flute Piano recordings of the most sickening drenched in infinite lush reverb gunk I ever heard.
Then others joined in with their fu-fu fluffy flutes from far away exotic lands.

So I shared some Jethro Tull-ish Flute that sounded as if it was played by a man instead of a Peter Pan looking lad trying to serenade some chick in a forest where the insects, animals and plants came to life.
These cats sound like a lame Kenny G. in a giant sewer playing through a crappy hardware Tape Echo.

I loved ruining that thread.

[ronnie]

C'mon Jimmy, what happened to the "new generation kids" critique part of that comment. That was great. I thought I was hallucinating when I went back and the post was gone. Pretty scary that I could hallucinate a classic dawman post down to the red pube detail.

[ronnie]

Also, aside from the sound itself, solo or as it sits in a mix, I'm quite picky about how it responds, and unfortunately I don't think there are many sample libraries that behave like I want it to. I've had many years with pianoteq, so I've learned how it behaves, and to a large degree, it suites sensibilities carried over from acoustics. I'm sure there are sample libs out there that may work, or perhaps will work with some tweaking. I just don't have the time and money to be out hunting for it. It's exhausting I know, because I spent years hunting. I'd say Pianoteq for me placates the hunt just enough, though I still need to consciously keep myself from expanding the hunt to better controllers and such.

Well said. I revisited the Pianoteq and find the current version 5 pretty astounding. My Kurzweil SP88-SX has a nice Fatar keybed so any further explorations there are not really important. Very satisfying combo.

[kensuguro]

btw, stepping away from the "player" mindset, I think the "production" mindset offers some different perspectives. From a production perspective, you'd be looking for a particular sound that includes how and where a piano was recorded, and perhaps the character of the particular piano too. But the production perspective would contain all these things, and the response and feel of the instrument would matter less. (unless the result sounds totally fake)

For me, jazz recordings exemplify this. For ex, Bill Evans' Portrait in Jazz has a particular sound. Let's say there was a sample library that did exactly that sound. Let's say there was a physical modeled version too, that sounded the same but responded as an acoustic would. (or maybe even an exact copy of the exact piano that Evans used) At the end of the day, you still have the Portrait in Jazz sound.. If that's what you want, then you could probably achieve it with samples.

[ronnie]

Yeah Ken. That's what distinguishes the Pianoteq 5 from all the others for me. With my keybed, the total physical and aural experience is there for me in my forays into the "Bill Evans" improv/composition universe. The harmonic richness is rally there and the musical flow seems easier and relaxed for me. Of all the pianos I find I can make the Pianoteq 5 mine. Outside of jazz, per se, I might use something else but I think a tweaked Pianoteq 5 model may fit the bill just by adjusting it's parameters in the mix. I have yet to try that.