I didn't realize Komplete 10 was already here These guys are getting better and better and better every year... Their pack, at this price, is SOOOO amazing!
You pay for a few things you will never use, because it covers all kind of stuff and needs, but hey, everything is top notch, everything they do is superior quality, no discussion about that.
And what about Kontakt? I think there is nothing better and it is really difficult to expect for any company to top it, it has gone a long, long way already, and I would say it is perfect and deep. What else can you expect!
And their new hardware keyboard makes it a perfect match.
I went through the whole lot in their web, hear all songs and read articles, and it is an awesome collection of instruments, samples, effects, synths, etc. Congratulations to them!
mmm, don't know, to my ears and since day one, Reason has always sounded kind of plastic to me. I haven't tried it in quite a long while so, perhaps it is much better now, but for what I can hear in the demos and songs that people make out there, created with Reason, NI is a much sophisticated product and it sounds really pro.
I personally, don’t see Reason 7 as a competition to Komplete 10, in the offered sounds, and particularly in the workflow. Just my likes...
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
i think all the sample programs sound like shit, but from a practical standpoint, of course they're useful and heaven sent. the best thing about these programs is that a writer/creator/producer/artist doesn't need other people, since other people are expensive and a pain in the neck. on the other hand, the worst thing about these samplers/romplers is that you don't need other people.
there's some kind oif richness of experience that is lost in the lack of interaction between people and between cranky instruments that are hard to learn. there's an importance that is lost when it's too cheap and easy to make art and music. it's definitely not all bad and i'm certainly a user of these technologies, too my own and others' benefit, and still...
oh, and a recording of a real instrument always sounds better.
it IS easier to make very competent music with romplers since they always sound their best, and the results can be quantized and micro-managed. again, there is a certain richness lost from real instruments played by great players. i guess there's nothing wrong with this except that very few know the difference anymore. and so the level of banality rises ever so slightly with some and fills the available space for others...in the end, there are sounds and you must make the sounds enjoyable. ultimately, making sounds into something worth listening to is the point. there aren't many musical tools that can't make great music if a great music maker is using them.
Nestor wrote:mmm, don't know, to my ears and since day one, Reason has always sounded kind of plastic to me. I haven't tried it in quite a long while so, perhaps it is much better now, but for what I can hear in the demos and songs that people make out there, created with Reason, NI is a much sophisticated product and it sounds really pro.
I personally, don’t see Reason 7 as a competition to Komplete 10, in the offered sounds, and particularly in the workflow. Just my likes...
I do. If I want fretless bass, I use orange tree Jaco in Kontakt. If I want electric bass, Dan Dean Fender is just as useful in a Reason refill. I have Shreddage in both Kontakt and Reason version, Reason wins. Some libraries are available on both such as Juggernaut, and both just as good.
It will be line ball using both in the future and the Rack Extension format has great sound and GUI.
AS an owner of komplete 8 i'm quite disappointed by this update... i was expecting more sample libraries and, most important, some major upgrade of kontakt or guitar rig...
if i will find some money i maybe will wait to get a 50% deal on komplete 10 ultimate or i'll pass until komplete 11
garyb wrote:i think all the sample programs sound like shit, but from a practical standpoint, of course they're useful and heaven sent. the best thing about these programs is that a writer/creator/producer/artist doesn't need other people, since other people are expensive and a pain in the neck. on the other hand, the worst thing about these samplers/romplers is that you don't need other people.
there's some kind oif richness of experience that is lost in the lack of interaction between people and between cranky instruments that are hard to learn. there's an importance that is lost when it's too cheap and easy to make art and music. it's definitely not all bad and i'm certainly a user of these technologies, too my own and others' benefit, and still...
oh, and a recording of a real instrument always sounds better.
it IS easier to make very competent music with romplers since they always sound their best, and the results can be quantized and micro-managed. again, there is a certain richness lost from real instruments played by great players. i guess there's nothing wrong with this except that very few know the difference anymore. and so the level of banality rises ever so slightly with some and fills the available space for others...in the end, there are sounds and you must make the sounds enjoyable. ultimately, making sounds into something worth listening to is the point. there aren't many musical tools that can't make great music if a great music maker is using them.
Very interesting and truthful too Gary, I have to agree with everything, except the first phrase, as I find some libraries really very, very good sounding. Now, if I keep reading, of course, the rest of the ideas put down any library, compared with real instruments and the “human” element.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
Nestor wrote:mmm, don't know, to my ears and since day one, Reason has always sounded kind of plastic to me. I haven't tried it in quite a long while so, perhaps it is much better now, but for what I can hear in the demos and songs that people make out there, created with Reason, NI is a much sophisticated product and it sounds really pro.
I personally, don’t see Reason 7 as a competition to Komplete 10, in the offered sounds, and particularly in the workflow. Just my likes...
I do. If I want fretless bass, I use orange tree Jaco in Kontakt. If I want electric bass, Dan Dean Fender is just as useful in a Reason refill. I have Shreddage in both Kontakt and Reason version, Reason wins. Some libraries are available on both such as Juggernaut, and both just as good.
It will be line ball using both in the future and the Rack Extension format has great sound and GUI.
I guess this is something like “Cubase versus Logic” arguments we are having.
What I disliked most about Reason was the synths, and the workflow.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
Nestor, not so much "put down" as "realistic"...
of course music made with romplers can sound awesome. for what they are, samplers/romplers are amazing and of course, they are recordings of real instruments. "sound like shit" is compared to the real thing played by a great player. as i said, i use these products all the time, so my comment wasn't really negative. i can't see fighting over one or the other, however.
always these instruments are said to be awesome, and always they need to be updated and redone and resold. somehow there's a disconnect there... it's really disgusting how the computer world makes us to feel that is we just buy the next update or the new software, our music will suddenly become wonderful because that little processor will do it for us. contrast this to an actual saxophone, piano or guitar. if you buy a good one, one of the better instruments on the market, you'll never NEED another, ever. of course, it's always nice to have variety...
Nestor wrote:I guess this is something like “Cubase versus Logic” arguments we are having. What I disliked most about Reason was the synths, and the workflow.
Depends what synths youre talking about. The new Rack Extension versions of the Korg Monopoly and PolySix are as good as any native replications.
To be fair, I should probably only compare Kontakt to Reason Rompler refills, whereas Rack Extensions are more comparable to the whole of Komplete, with engineered replications as well as Romplers.
Either way Reason has come long way in the last few years especially now with 3rd parties building Rack Extensions...and in that department alone its becoming a match for the NI stuff.
Kontakt still wins at the high end 'large' side of the market stuff like Session Brass, Strings EWQL etc. But in the (bedroom warrior / consumer) mid range (say below $300 per plug/sample set) Reason is well endowed.
But the real jewel in the crown for Reason is the Combinator. Here, I can 'combine' say 16 or more String samplers from different libraries, some solo samples and some sectional samples. You then get a large polyphony sounding orchestral string section mixed with the Reason SLL and fed into Cubase / Scope as a stereo submix. You can then save the entire string section and the way its mixed for reuse next track. With that kind of poly, the need for EWQL $400+ Hollywood String section sample set is kind of negated and then buy yourself a few extra Scope plugs with the saved cash. Admittedly consuming a bit more CPU than a single expensive sample set - but hey - sample playback doesn't punish CPU's too much anyway.
It's democratizing music! What's wrong with that? The world would be better of if more people start making music.
Not all of us are so serious about music, but still want to spend some money for quality, and I think Komplete is a very attractive set of tools for the money, for hobbyists as pro's alike...
Most professional musicians I know play the real deals for sure, and it makes me dream... but these people usually play a lot better than me and deserve such instruments. at least I have scope, a substitute, just as Komplete (only Scope is much more expensive), or should only people with real instruments be allowed to make music?
borg, please reread what i said. i think you misunderstand me.
there was an argument about quality and the point was that it's a moot argument. Komplete is a good product and Reason is a good product, i would use either or both quite happily. but if you really want to get down to what sounds best, it's neither...
no, i don't think it helps anyone in society if everyone is a music maker, although anyone who wants to make music, i'm fine with. if everyone made music, who would be the audience? that puts a whole lot of people who worked very hard to be good at what they do out of business. we don't need music "democratized" any more than we need silver workers or electricians or plumbers "democratized". it's a good thing for everyone if some do this and others do that. we don't need to all be 100% equal, since everyone is different and that's nice, unless you're talking about "the law" or air and water or something like that..
Yet, the greatly grown accessability to making music makes new kinds of music come into existance.
Specially electronic music in all it's variety.
Most real instrument musicians are rather conservative.
That's also an aspect of Borg's 'democratizing' effect of the digitalizing proces.
there's nothing new in electronic music. mangling and garbling things is certainly cool, i definitely like it, but electronic music isn't new anymore and having more people make it hasn't made it better. it already is what it is. anyway, a new rompler has nothing to do with anything that will make some groundbreaking music. melody, harmony, time and rhythm don't change, even with a crazy filter. they certainly won't change because of an instrument and musician replacer.
garyb wrote:if everyone made music, who would be the audience?
sorry if you felt addressed, Gary, it was just an opinion. I mostly agree on everything. You know, I'm surrounded by excellent musicians at work: international orchestra's and soloists, jazzcats and flamenco players, contemporary dance and music, a conservatory (classical and jazz) in a building intertwined with our theatre, students practicing in the hall way.
all people I look up to that achieve a high standard (and as said, none of them use our digital gizmo's). I, for one, am one of those people that do this just for a hobby because it has been 'democratized', a person that has much more respect for the professional performing musician because I know how much I still suck after this many years.
I am definitely in that audience!
Agreed, the 'better world' thing is a bit of a boutade, and of course music is not gonna solve things, but it sure won't make it any worse...
edit: for clarity's sake, 'none of them uses our digital gizmo's' of course is not entirely correct, if you look to some of the high end stomp boxes like eventide or strymon. by the way, Gary, can you point Holger to http://www.strymon.net/timeline/ wouldn't that be awesome for Scope?
it's all good! i don't mind anybody making music, for the most part.
yep, that looks like a great delay! the main thing that it has that's missing in Scope is a tap tempo.
even with that very nifty box(one that i certainly would consider it if i wanted to buy a delay pedal right now)_ and yet, it's still an attempt to recreate older hardware that sounded so awesome, but in a more convenient package. this is exactly what i was talking about. it's easy to think that a new package offers new music and sounds, but, well...these things are based on things already extant. the original is always better than the copy, although the copy may also be great.
Last edited by garyb on Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nestor wrote:I guess this is something like “Cubase versus Logic” arguments we are having. What I disliked most about Reason was the synths, and the workflow.
Depends what synths youre talking about. The new Rack Extension versions of the Korg Monopoly and PolySix are as good as any native replications.
To be fair, I should probably only compare Kontakt to Reason Rompler refills, whereas Rack Extensions are more comparable to the whole of Komplete, with engineered replications as well as Romplers.
Either way Reason has come long way in the last few years especially now with 3rd parties building Rack Extensions...and in that department alone its becoming a match for the NI stuff.
Kontakt still wins at the high end 'large' side of the market stuff like Session Brass, Strings EWQL etc. But in the (bedroom warrior / consumer) mid range (say below $300 per plug/sample set) Reason is well endowed.
But the real jewel in the crown for Reason is the Combinator. Here, I can 'combine' say 16 or more String samplers from different libraries, some solo samples and some sectional samples. You then get a large polyphony sounding orchestral string section mixed with the Reason SLL and fed into Cubase / Scope as a stereo submix. You can then save the entire string section and the way its mixed for reuse next track. With that kind of poly, the need for EWQL $400+ Hollywood String section sample set is kind of negated and then buy yourself a few extra Scope plugs with the saved cash. Admittedly consuming a bit more CPU than a single expensive sample set - but hey - sample playback doesn't punish CPU's too much anyway.
Wow, thank you for explaining me this, the "Combinator" thing is a killer. I've never heard of such a posibility... I have already everything I need for my work anyway. Nevertheless, I should perhaps try Reason again in the future, why not.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
At about 50 centimeters from me, at my right side, I have my two guitars and my bass, I play and sing too. What do I enjoy more? Composing or playing? It is difficult to say, but most of the time, I think, composing is more important to me, than playing, because it allows to express whole things.
Said that, I am extremely grateful that such a technology (virtual instruments and PC) exists and it’s available to me. I am very lucky to play already some instruments, the first being the bass, but I felt the same gratefulness to have learned some about the virtual world. I am much more a musician and a player than an acoustic engineer like Gary, for instance, I have learned just enough to do what I need to do.
When I build my first Pulsar system and installed the latest version of Cubse in those days, which was Cubase 3.1 or something, I felt such a gratitude to Charlie Steinberg, his team and, of course, in those times, Creamware! I couldn’t belief how much you can do.
Today, with my latest machine and software, I can do virtually, anything, or even, everything… I don’t, but I could…
I guess most people fall into the trap of buying too many pieces of software and virtual instruments alike, to the point of losing ground, losing the point, which is making music. I have said it countless times here in the Z.
(This will make Gary happy) The time we spend learning so many new ways and stuff, or even creating new presets for a future that never comes, etc., it would perhaps be cool if we could use to learn more about the real instruments.
I really admire guys always learning something new, always looking for some deep details in the programming etc., but at the end of the day, for me, that would be disappointing. I don’t want to know that much, I want to do that much.
I entered the world of virtual music with a surgical eye at the beginning, I really love it, and as I said, I am enormously grateful for all these great inventions, but I like to put then in perspective, and give them their place, their space. Out of their scope and space, they become to me, the opposite, and I start feeling certain… kind of revulsion if you like, like I said in another thread, talking about samples and one hit exaggeration.
As a conclusion, the world of virtual music should serve us, and not us to the world of virtual music. It should be understood as a set of tools. From the moment these tools get priority over artistry, we are in trouble.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
btw I'd add my 2 cents... packaging tools and selling them in a package doesn't really constitute "democratizing" music to me. The programming world (open source world) is somewhat democratized in that tools are available to anyone, knowledge (documentation) is open, and anyone is able to participate in the governance of the codebase if one has enough commitment. The path for participation is limited, regulated, and very direct. With music, regardless of accessibility of tools, whatever gets produced, and its relationship to the heritage of music is totally ambiguous and undefined. To me, it's anarchy and not democracy. Any one can produce sounds, and put a stream up on sound cloud. Participation complete?
These guys are getting better and better and better every year... Their pack, at this price, is SOOOO amazing!
it's really disgusting how the computer world makes us to feel that is we just buy the next update or the new software, our music will suddenly become wonderful because that little processor will do it for us. contrast this to an actual saxophone, piano or guitar. if you buy a good one, one of the better instruments on the market, you'll never NEED another, ever. of course, it's always nice to have variety...
