iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

[Bud Weiser]

(By "Analog computer" I mean the usual analog stuff we call analog. like synths, and filters, and mixing boards. Yes, these really are analog computers, very often calculating math based designs, or like the original synths...trying to model a wooden or brass instrument And those were shunned at the time because they weren't real enough!)

No,- analog synths aren´t computers because they compute nothing.
Since the preset memory system was introduced in analog synths, these were "digitally controlled" analog synths.
The only computing was about processing the positions of frontpanel controls for digital storage and recall.
B.t.w. signal degradation came up w/ exactly these preset memory system because the formerly continuously variable filter cutoff frequency p.ex., now became a stepped curve which was necessary for a frontpanel´s knob or slider´s position to be stored in digital preset domain.

That ruled for every parameter knob on the frontpanel of a real analog synth offering a preset system,- but the result was close enough for "government work" ...

You say the analog synth tries or tried modelling an acoustic instrument,- as an example.

It doesn´t,- it´s not modelling, it tries to mimik some for the human ear important aspects of a analog wave,- the loudness/amplitude envelope and a (modulated) filter offset frequency and curve (filter envelope).

Early generations of digital synths like the Roland D50 made it already "better", where "better" is about fooling the human ear.
There was the analog synth type synth architecture AND attack portion waves, sampled from real acoustic signals which were important for the human ear to make it believe there´s a real world acoustic event happening.

Bud

[garyb]

yes.

but like i said, i do like digital. my love for dsps and computers is practical and economical.
editing is wonderful, sound quality is excellent, the results speak for themselves.
i love Scope for what it allows me to do.
i love Cubase for the way the editing tools work.
i love the computer for how much work it can do for the price.

i'm not going to fool myself into thinking that just because it's easier and cheaper, it's better, however.
we're talking about hammers here. screwdrivers and levers... things that help you do a job...

for audio quality, hand wired, discreet transistor or tube custom made electronics just won't be beat. they don't alias, they don't have rounding errors, they can distort, but these types of electronics still pass a signal that's recognizable when they do. real electronics don't simply return garbage data when overdriven. digital can't and won't ever compete on that level because of the way digital destroys the original signal and then recreates it(as Bud suggested).

all that said, i have old digital delays with 12bit dacs that sound better than ANY computer delay. i just never use them because my Scope and vst delays are more than good enough, but STILL... we've been trained that newer=better, that things are always improving, but the truth is electronic amplification and reproduction of sound was perfected AGES ago. the reason we keep getting models of old gear is that the old gear was just THAT good. a perfect example is the theremin. listen to Clara Rockmore play her original theremin(Mr. Theremin made it for her. she was it's demonstrator). it has only a few parts. no one really undersatands the circuit, a part is hidden, but it's said to be incredibly simple. no one has been able to make a better(or even as good) sounding theremin than the originals. Moog tried.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhxkExetN9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0c7p5geJZs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSzTPGlN ... NAN2nD2q8H

[fra77x]

By my experience digital is way beyond the analog. It's funny how people can't replicate the noise. Just use a noise generator...

I don't want to spoil it for you. But it is always the fault of the "engineer". Digital is capable for perfect sound. You just have to know what to do...

Of course if you are looking for a 70's sound it is always easier to use old equipment. But that doesn't mean that you can't create "70's" sound only with digital equipment.

[Bud Weiser]

yes.

we're talking about hammers here. screwdrivers and levers... things that help you do a job...

All correct !

for audio quality, hand wired, discreet transistor or tube custom made electronics just won't be beat. they don't alias, they don't have rounding errors, they can distort, but these types of electronics still pass a signal that's recognizable when they do. real electronics don't simply return garbage data when overdriven. digital can't and won't ever compete on that level because of the way digital destroys the original signal and then recreates it(as Bud suggested).

thx, true !

all that said, i have old digital delays with 12bit dacs that sound better than ANY computer delay. i just never use them because my Scope and vst delays are more than good enough, but STILL... we've been trained that newer=better, that things are always improving, but the truth is electronic amplification and reproduction of sound was perfected AGES ago.

I´m thinking that too,- and I loved my Roland SDE2000 12Bit digital delays which I sold years ago because I didn´t use ´em anymore.
I also like the Yamaha D-1500, sold one and kept the other ´til today,- but rarely use it too.

the reason we keep getting models of old gear is that the old gear was just THAT good.

Yes, and it was build like a tank and reliable, rarely needed service.
I have many pieces of gear which have never seen a service center or tech.
My analog chorus rackmount devices sound killer and aren´t noisy at all, no comparison to stomp boxes.
They are more noisy than a digital machine, yes,- but it doesn´t matter in the context.
My DBX 166 compressors also work great and do what they should do ´til today.

I also use digital compression but IMO, analog compressors behave different.

When I go into other studios, these which are for rent, not home,- they all have both kinds of gear,- digital and analog.
There´s none where the digital world replaced the analog world,- it´s in co-exsitence and harmony there.

a perfect example is the theremin. listen to Clara Rockmore play her original theremin(Mr. Theremin made it for her. she was it's demonstrator). it has only a few parts. no one really undersatands the circuit, a part is hidden, but it's said to be incredibly simple. no one has been able to make a better(or even as good) sounding theremin than the originals. Moog tried.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhxkExetN9Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0c7p5geJZs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSzTPGlN ... NAN2nD2q8H

thx for the links, I´ll check that later when the sun is disappeared from my yard ...



Bud

[jksuperstar]

Bud, the analog synths are definitely computers. Not in what we think of today for computers, but in terms of math..having a continuous equation, with integrators and differentiators (filters) and sine wave functions and....yep, all the same shit the enigma encryption engines had, even if those were mechanical computers . The only difference is the math for digital is based on discrete time and quantized values. The math for analog is continuous time and uses real numbers (rational and irrational). Electrical engineers get as much math training as someone studying physics for good reason.

[fra77x]

True, there is a rumor that they are going to replace the cash registers at the supermarkets with analogue synthesizers.
That way they are going to calculate the exact cost of the products without the trouble digital technology causes...

And with that "enigma" cryptography circuits we are going to catch the enemies hidden formulas right on the shelf!

[garyb]

just one more thing about the Theremin, Clara Rockmore's unit was made in the early 1920's. it is still the most expressive, and vocal, synthesizer ever made. newer is rarely "better". it's more practical or cheaper maybe...the original theremins took a couple of people to move(custom wooden case) and used a large, metal, grounded screen(seen in the backround as a 6ft tall[2m] metal diamond mesh behind her) to sheild the instrument from backround radiation. that's a lot more trouble than a keyboard. as a synth, a theremin can play what a keyboard could never dream of playing.

why do people keep trying to lower the debate to digital vs analog? it's real vs. virtual.
real wins every time and ALWAYS will.

virtual is great, though. i use virtual 100x more often than real because of practical and monetary considerations, but for sound, real always wins.
if you really think that virtual is superior to reality, you need to get out of your bedroom.

i'll say it again. audio was perfected years ago.

[fra77x]

That is what old guys think.

[fra77x]

Do you really believe that your "ears" are infinite?

i.e. Do you have some kind of elephant ears?

[garyb]

yes, and i'm old.

i feel sorry for anyone who thinks the virtual is superior to the real. Back to the Matrix anyone?

again, i LOVE my virtual gear.

[fra77x]

How do you love something fake? Something that just fools people? Something that is not reality (!)?
Perhaps it is the imagination of the engineers. But their imagination was so fantastic that has become a reality...
You have to be young to hear that...

So, is that a new way looking at things? ([...] audio has been mastered at the 70's [...])
Because all new music is using current digital technics to provide a new, unheard, detailed, new perspective of sound that it is a different era on its own.... My 50 euro boss pedal can provide me with all the "warmth", the "reality", the noise i like. And i can also live without it. Digital compression is something that didn't exist. And which studio offered 40 realtime compressors. Who engineer would setup for what project 40 devices? I do it everyday. Goodnight analog world. Goodmorning Digital era. The first time humanity can really control, synthesize and do whatever thought interesting with sound.... Bored of unnessecary noise....

[Nestor]

Well one problem with modeling acoustic instruments is the controller. You can make so many sounds and play in so many ways with a bow, bridge, neck etc. that you can never get playing a violin on a keyboard. Physical modeling would have to use a real instrument to do that. Not impossible but highly unlikely any time soon plus you would have to learn to play it like a real instrument. There is no point in that. You might as well buy a real violin.

But back to virtual mixing and effects, I think within 100 years it will be just as good as analog but perhaps the price for the very best stuff always will be prohibitively expensive for the average consumer.

First paragraph: it makes 100% sense to me what you have just said. But this is not the only point, if you read again, what I mean is that we will have also a second world of sound, and this second world will be as attractive, creative and organic as the first.

I did not really talked about “modeling” instruments nevertheless, I was referring exclusively to the mixing and mastering realms, and I really think that in this dominion, digital will equal analogue, this is what I said.

Second paragraph: I’m sorry brain…, but we do not have 100 years ahead… we don't have even 50…

[garyb]

sorry. real is real, not a perspective.

actually, mics and preamps were perfected in the 40's maybe before, as was tape.

i have not heard one new, unheard perspective from digital yet unless you talk about granulation maybe.
for all the new music being made, how much will still be rememebred fondly say, 30 years from now? i'm guessing that it will be mostly NONE. almost anything that is really new is so unecessary to music, that it's only fun for a short time, then something else needs to take it's place. kids learning intruments today all want to learn old music. why is that? well, trends don't last. even corporate shit from the 80's has more long term appeal.

anyway, as i said, it's not analog vs. digital, it's REAL vs VIRTUAL, be it analog OR digital.

whether it's new or old hardly matters, if it's sound and music that you love. new is good, old is good. it's exceedingly arrogant to like or dislike sound based on the age of the recording or composition.

how can i LOVE my virtual gear?
it sounds good, it's easy and convienient to use and it's cheap compared to real gear.
how can i NOT love it?

[Nestor]

yes, and i'm old.
.

super cool answer...

[garyb]

I was referring exclusively to the mixing and mastering realms, and I really think that in this dominion, digital will equal analogue, this is what I said.

digital stuff is already that good, except not. currently, analog and digital are happily living together in the same world, with no issues. by "second world", if you mean the matrix, then knock yourself out with your implants. that will end human life much quicker than wars or bad politics ever could. yes, Ray Kurzweil would agree, the virtual will soon be preferred to the real world, but that's because people have been trained to value their deaths over their lifes. any of the things you are most concerned about come from that.

[fra77x]

I understand. You are one of those nostalgics with the old times. Nothing new he? Only the old stuff is real and "classic", new stuff is going to dissapear... Great touch of life... Old times had music, now there are only trends and damn corporations... And i suppose you play true music... jazz. Played by real musicians not nerd hippies he?
When did they mastered the mics? At the 40's? Nice info.... They also had the gramophone... Excellent stuff.
So it is just you the real man against the others the new, the fake ones.... Great reality or perspective.

What? You still love the shitty fake thing? Because it is cheap? And your stupid customers are not going to notice ee?

You are a great man...

Now start to learn that new age kind of stuff. You are going to love it. It's not fake. It is real. World has evolved. It doesn't do the favor to people standing still... But it is good nevertheless. Progress is good! It's kind of weird for old people but it is still good! Million of people can assure that.

[garyb]

i don't think i fit in your pigeon hole.

no, i don't play jazz.

no, i don't think you have properly parsed my posts.

what are you defending? the truth is not an offense. what new music is there that shows this increedible evolution? what is it's purpose?
new does not equal better. new can be better, worse or indifferent. progress is not always a help to anyone, though it CAN be a help.

i've already told you WHY i love my virtual gear. it has nothing to do with whether it's real or not and no, the customer usually can't tell the difference. that doesn't mean that there isn't one, though.

hey, go ahead and join the singularity. once you do, it won't matter what you are or think anyway.

yes, that's right. the old folks are just senile fools who are behind the times(well, that's true for many), not people with actual experience.
at least in my case, i've immersed myself in more forms of music than you're probably even aware of in my lifetime. i don't play ANY Jazz. none. i do record it occasionally though.

the theremin synthesizer was made in the early 20's. Robert Moog spent a lifetime unsuccessfully trying to imitate it. now what?

[fra77x]

I'm not going to defend the music that is created around the world in our times. Surely it's the most advanced, created by a lot more people, with a lot more education, with a lot better equipment. If you are unaware of that stuff you should start looking around.
The pop music of our times i don't know if it is best but it is adaquate to supersede the previous production and become the music that people hear. We only hear old music as old music. For historical reasons... The museum is open.

I don't know the singularity weirdness.. Is it the idea that says when AI become smarter than men? A hidden catastrophology...
We are used to such nonsense. It is the normal return of the fear of people in front of the new and the unexplored. We survived a million "catastrophes" we will survive some more...

Ok i will add the theremin synthesizer to the list with the mysteries of the pyramids and other frightening (brrrr) tales....

Be cool...

[garyb]

the end of this cartoon says it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNqXmIiqGik

better education? really? musicians are better educated about music and how it works, really?

how old are you?

singularity is the point when all the humans are networked like cell phones via hard connection to the brain....the ultimate evolution of technology and biology.

speaking of evolution, you are aware of the FACT that not one intermediary species has been found to show actual selection in process, right? some people confuse epi-genetics with actual natural selection/evolution, while failing to observe that epigenetics doesn't involve any actual changes to the genes, just the espression of those genes. in other words, classical evolution can only be demonstrated by actual dna manipulation in the lab. it has yet to be shown in the field. of course, the improved education means you already know this, just like you know all the chord substitutions of a Dm7-9#11.

[fra77x]

How better were the old cartoons from nowadays shitty boring fake 3d animated 3d rendered with poor physical simulations and nonsense detail, stupid luminar reflections, fluid (who thought it!) dynamics, and all these fake tricks that corporations are using so to fool the people... and make them stupid... Give them real water! We want real! No fake. I want to go to the cinema and get wet...

You are right.

Also guys please explain to me that: When i go to my grandmother house and i use the OLD telephone device, and i call my girlfriend then everything is honey and sweet. But when i call her from my mobile phone (it's digital ) she is always angry and she tells me that i am a loser. I have started to get conspicious with the telephone device. So is there anyone with an similar experience? Should i call the telephony company?


///
Of course you are a darwin refuser. An anti-evolution guy... Everything makes sense in the details. Do you believe in creationism? Are there still people that refuse natural selection? Great.


/// i just googled the substitutions of a Dm7-9#11. Quite cheap information.... Unreliable. Shitty google. How on earth should i add that 7th, and the great 9th and wow the 11th. How should i extend my notes by 3rds? Quite a mystery. An old guy should teach me how to do it.. All the substitutions! There are hundreds of them! Should i do it for all keys mi(a)ster? Old guys were better and didn't had such tools. Old guys had the bible. There is a section with harmony tables at the Johannes passion part.

I think the "mysteries & conspirances" literature harms you a bit but do as you please...

Really what is your age? 87? We can meet and listen to wonderful stories from the wars.. Can you tell us again that story when someone invented the light? Or do you believe that only god can create the light? Because old guys have such beliefs often...