SAT connections errors in lite projects.

[Inferman]

Hello!

I have permanent problem with shuffling\reshuffling plugins to avoid "sat connect error" in my projects (Win7 x64).

The worst situation is in XTC for sure - several plugins, a couple of synths -> SAT error (frequently unsolvable).
In normal mode - if I only dare to use Spacef Modular Mixer , 10-12 ASIO channels connected, several plugins in inserts -> SAT errors.
Last lime I even got SAT error with 2448 (what is simplier? ), 7 ASIO stereo channels connected, and plugins, quite a lot actually, but nevertheless it took 25-30% of DSP usage and went to SAT error.

If I include VDAT recorder in my project and get even once SAT error - it starts to record silence, not the project (and nothing helps further).

I've read here on PlanetZ a lot about some 'gold rules' to assign Mixers, I\O etc. manually to specific DSP, but when 'SAT errors' appear the best way I found to solve it - clear all assignment and let Scope make it automatically.

In fact, the question is:
What could I do to affect on 'SAT connect errors' (to make possible to use at least 60-80% of DSP usage)?
Is there any correlations with motherboard (I have Sabbertooth Z77, 1155), PCI-e slot selected (my xite is in PICex1 slot), I don't know, maybe CPU or RAM?

What is 'SAT connection'? Is there way to solve it by software and proper Scope updates or it is engineer' issue on XITE card associated with an insufficient number of paths between DSP chips and nothing can change it except to resolder XITE?

I remember the Garyb words about reshuffling as a feature, that others cards have not.
But with TC PowerCore, for example, I have at least a confidence that my amout of plugins used will work perfectly in projects every time I load it, despite on unoptimized DSP usage there. The same story with UAD.

[garyb]

do you want to do it like UAD and TC?
just use less stuff.


sat errors are indeed about connections between dsps. only so many are possible no matter what, no matter how you configure. just as in the way that your house is the size that it is. software might handle the loading of dsps to get more out of the system and so the errors would be minimized, but the limit is the limit. so, it's a combination of things.

it all depends on how you use the resources available. some users NEVER experience this problem, some users OFTEN encounter it.

people are funny. for the price of two 15 dsp cards, the XITE is sold. even in the very worst case scenario, it will do the work of four or five 15dsp PCI cards.(i can't imagine a reason the use the system in a way that would cause this worst case scenario, at least not for music production. the idea almost seems reckless.) there's no perspective in the use of virtual power. i understand that it's frustrating that it's not working the way you want it to, but the fact is that the more the thing does, the more you want it to do. i guess that's human nature. there's no need to redesign the XITE except maybe retrofit MADI. it's just that this is the absolute limit for a dsp farm, ANY dsp farm, at this time and probably for quite some time to come.

[Inferman]

Garyb, You're right partly about human's and my particular greed but I faced with another sad problems:

1) I just can't manage, as example, 16 ASIO chennel project (sure in 44.1 kHz) with Modular Mixer (which is supposed to be good), without anything special but the path channel->stem->master bus, with one-two reverbs and at least one Comp per channel - it already goes to SAT error. I could be wrong, but it's quite simple project that still leads to issues

2) What is x5-10 DSP XITE power for if I cant use it? )) When I had two x15 Pro cards I definitely had less SAT errors with absolutely the same projects.

Yes, I really was greedy (as a pig ), when I tried to combine Fat Mixer, Poly-Synths, mixing effects and mastering bus in one project, but I can assure You my current appetites no more than two x15 Scope Pro cards could provide.

My sorrow is basically concerning XITE issues with lite (for it's power) projects, which probably could disappear if I clarify the nature of SAT problems.

As an example, I could insert for my project the bundled SC compressors in Mixer, but if I try to combine them with DAS AI COMP, it almost every time leads to SAT errors (especially when I use not bundled mixer).
I can use SC-Plate, SC-Ambi and SC-Chorus many times if I just insert it in mixer one by one as an experiment, but I can't use even two of them in Modular Mixer and even (my last project) in SpaceF 106X Mixer with 7 stereo ASIO channels, NO effects and 1 VDAT.

That is my pain, one way it works and shows me true power, other way it can't even provide the simple project

[Inferman]

even in the very worst case scenario, it will do the work of four or five 15dsp PCI cards

That is the problem, Garyb, I have worse than worst scenatio here =(
I can't load the whole projects I made with 2x15 Pro cards (my mistake, with 3x15 cards ).

When Scope offers to reshuffle, I hold my breathe, because it's 50% of fail cases

some users NEVER experience this problem, some users OFTEN encounter it

That's why I made this post, maybe I just don't make a correction for the proper use of certain plug-ins in a specific sequence?

[garyb]

that is a third party mixer.

do you have the latest version? i believe that Mehdi had updated it a bit. i know that he is planning to update all his plugins for XITE that need it, but i don't think he's in the position to do it at the moment. i can't speak for Mehdi, so this is just my understanding.

yes, that's right. you can't do those things. and? some of those devices are quite complex, which is part of why they are so superlative. that complexity uses resources. verbs can be used outside the mixer. it looks like that comp may need to be used outside the mixer as well if you are going to use the modular mixer. again, i understand the frustration, but that's how it is.

as to projects from the PCI cards to the XITE, they involve the modular mixer, no? again, we know that it's prone to sat errors. it's because of how it works. it needs to be optimized for the XITEs. even then, it will be more prone to that error than other mixers. there are no unlimited resources of any kind in your pc.

[garyb]

even in the very worst case scenario, it will do the work of four or five 15dsp PCI cards

That is the problem, Garyb, I have worse than worst scenatio here =(
I can't load the whole projects I made with 2x15 Pro cards (my mistake, with 3x15 cards ).

using the modular mixer?

[Inferman]

yes, that's right. you can't do those things. and? some of those devices are quite complex, which is part of why they are so superlative. that complexity uses resources. verbs can be used outside the mixer. it looks like that comp may need to be used outside the mixer as well if you are going to use the modular mixer. again, i understand the frustration, but that's how it is.

there are no unlimited resources of any kind in your pc.

Garyb, I'm sure You're tired to explain this simple things million of times and I can understand Your point

Myabe it's just the matter of... metering DSP usage?
I mean, I would understand the limits well, if after using one heavy mixer, one Verb and two complex Comp DSP Meter would show me 98% of used potential =) I wouldn't add plugins further in such project. In other way, with lite mixer and 30 comp with 5 verbs I would see 15% of used potential, and gladly add some further stuff.
Frankly, I would feel myself better
Now, as You said, I'm in frustration and even confusion with 10-15% of DSP usage in both upper cases, what I can use and what I can't.

using the modular mixer?

That's right.

[Bud Weiser]

SAT connection is communication between chips and computer in XITE,- signal routing between chips in XITE and communication of the box w/ the host machine.

It has nothing to do w/ DSP power available.

Depending on what you plan and consequently do then,- you might max. out XITE-1´s SAT connections w/ just only 1 synth,- if it is complex enough.
ZARG Solaris is such an example b.t.w..

As a comparison, John Bowen´s hardware Solaris synth, which is more or less based on the software Solaris device, runs pretty fine on the SHARC chips and w/ 10 voice (+) polyphony, all components running incl. FX.
So I asked what´s the difference between XITE-1 and hardware Solaris synth.

The answer is,- on SCOPE/XITE systems which run w/ a host computer, there´s code running on the DSPs and code that is managed by the host computer.
There are restrictions in handling communication busses running in the host domain,- so that´s causing SAT errors.

In hardware Solaris, everything runs on the DSPs which makes the difference,- there´s no computer involved.

So, that was only an example and according to J.B. this cannot be fixed p.ex. for the software Solaris device and XITE-1.
The thread: http://forums.johnbowen.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=452.

OTOH,- you can get out much more power from XITE-1 and compared to Creamware cards when using these devices which run well and there are a lot of these available.

And J.B´s hardware Solaris machine does just only ONE thing,- running Solaris and FX on DSPs.

The "issue" is in no way a matter of measuring DSP usage !
In the DSP meter of XITE-1, you pretty much see how much DSP and SAT ressources are already consumated when you have devices in the project already and switch the meter to % for better understanding.
You have to watch the SAT connections much more than the DSP !!!

Watch what happens on chips 3-6 (the old 60MHz SHARCs) and 7-10 (the new 333MHz SHARCs) when loading new devices into the project window ...
DSPs 1 & 2 are for the hardware connections, VDAT, ASIO, WAVE and MIDI.
So, when you have lots of ASIO channels running that´s all a task for the 2 60MHz SHARC chips no. 1 & 2 IIRC.
I believe that´s also the reason why VSTIM is NOT the prefered way using XITE-1.

DSP 3-6 is communication w/ DSP 7-10 while 7-10 control most connections in DSP slots 1-4 (communication w/ the other 2 DSP chips in each slot: 11/15 // 12/16 // 13/17 // 14/18)

You can max out a XITE box DSP wise but that´s a long way.
You´ll always run out of SAT connection much earlier w/ most projects, but there are exceptions depending on what you do inside a given project.

Also, go over to the UAD forums and read about the issues they have w/ their cards ...

Bud

[jksuperstar]

One last addition, based on my experiences (using SC "X" optimized devices, and modular mixer, etc)

The SC STM mixers are optimized to be spread across several DSPs. If you load compressors onto every channel, they get distributed across DSPs.

If you load a modular mixer, it will be placed onto 1 DSP. All signals routed in & out will take up SAT connections, and if you load a bunch of compressors, they might be placed onto a separate DSP...which means more SAT connections from the mixer out to the Compressor on another DSP, and then back into the mixer again.

Hope that helps understand why there's a difference.

I've learned to use the SC mixer, and add to it with the modular. Turn on the STM's direct outs, and you can add AUX mixing where needed. Or extra buses. Or place the Modular Mixer's no-fader channels before the STM, to get the modulation that's built in to Mehdi's designs.

[Inferman]

Thanx, guys, I'll examine different kinds of projects, mixers and fx for better understanding XITE potential.

verbs can be used outside the mixer. it looks like that comp may need to be used outside the mixer as well if you are going to use the modular mixer

Yes, I've read it, try to do it this way.

The SC STM mixers are optimized to be spread across several DSPs
If you load a modular mixer, it will be placed onto 1 DSP

What if I create outside Multi-FX container between ASIO and mixer, and insert there the number of mixing comp+eq, is it the same as if I create the chain of outside mixing effects?
I mean is it the same sparing mode for SAT connections?

[Inferman]

Also, go over to the UAD forums and read about the issues they have w/ their cards ...

Maybe because I haven't been there I don't find such issues with my own UAD card
Frankly, I have no problems with TC and UAD except of crushing DAW if I set in TC too low latency for plugins.

[Bud Weiser]

Also, go over to the UAD forums and read about the issues they have w/ their cards ...

Maybe because I haven't been there I don't find such issues with my own UAD card
Frankly, I have no problems with TC and UAD except of crushing DAW if I set in TC too low latency for plugins.

I was talking Apollo ...
Do you have one ?

Bud

[Inferman]

I was talking Apollo ...
Do you have one ?

Oh, I see No, I haven't Apollo, just plugins card.

[garyb]

What if I create outside Multi-FX container between ASIO and mixer, and insert there the number of mixing comp+eq, is it the same as if I create the chain of outside mixing effects?
I mean is it the same sparing mode for SAT connections?

that would probably work. try it.