iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

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Nestor
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by Nestor »

Well…, it all depends for which kind of media you are working for. I know myself people that do master exclusively with VST and I have myself mastered very many works with only SCOPE and VST too, with extraordinarily good results, so it is not really true that “nobody” masters with VST. There is a place for this kind of mastering needs!

Now, If you get to the grammy level of things, well…, that’s a very demanding world in every aspect, even to offer a drink and something to eat to the person that comes to visit your studio will need to have such a high standard that you would probably spend more money in the bottle of whisky and the snack, than in your next upgrade he he :lol: So, it is a little fanciful to compare us with them. The money people move in the high mastering realms are pretty different compared with the amounts I and many VST studio guys handle, let say in radios voiceovers, jingles, presentations and the so, even in TV shows. As I say, for radio, TV shows, presentations, showrooms, little commercials movies for cinema, etc., I do master with SCOPE and VST and people tend to believe I have a mammoth studio because the final results are pretty good.

“BUT”, when I engage into any professional project, I never ever allow myself to start with a bad idea (something ineffective), or a bad sound-source in the first place, because I know I don’t have the tools to fix these kinds of problems to perfection in the mastering process, like the big studios have. That is probably why I can do it.

When I have to record something really demanding, the first thing is having new batteries, new strings, clean ideas and very well chosen or made from scratch presets for synths and samples. Guitar and bass takes must be almost perfect, or perfect, otherwise I throw them out to the rubbish bin and start all over again, no compromise accepted here. These takes may take me a few hours so no bad details at all are perceived or a sound is broken, they must be really good. I am very cautious doing what we could call a “cold sighted none-artistic analysis”, in regard with frequencies. I chose meticulously my instruments AT THE BEGINNING of the project with the aim of not getting into EQ too much. I will be very specific in this point: “I avoid getting into the sadly famous cutting frequencies problem to fix the mix”. I would try to use as little EQ as possible for this purpose, the source must be the sound to be used, and I am talking about the first source, not even an EQd bass, so to say. I have to get the sound “from the bass itself”, this is the best way to work for me.

Under these conditions, I can achieve pretty simple but good masters in just a few hours, sometimes immediately depending on the complexity of the song.

I neither use a tone of VSTs to process quality, I go with what is strictly needed to achieve the “character” of a given track, let say, a percussion track, and period, I don’t fool around or get too creative in the process either, as these masters are most of all for voiceover or things of the like, they only need to be well placed, no need to shine, except in rare occasions, for a few minutes.

In one occasion I actually send the tracks of an album to be mastered in Canada, and even if it was a renowned studio, the final result did not impress me much; they achieved a very clear sounding album yes, but so cold... So, I don’t know… I guess that VST mastering tracks have their own place in this world.

Conclusion: There are different mastering strata and many people are actually mastering with VST in low and middle end strata like myself. I doubt very seriously that Avril Lavigne would ever come to see a guy like myself for her mastering needs, but radios and TV shows actually do. I’m sure that if you send one of my songs to be mastered in a big expensive studio of grammy-like-quality, versus my own mastering, the master of the big studio will crash my master years light away, but… is there a need for such a quality there where I move? No, there isn’t, my masters are pretty good for what is needed.

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Eanna
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by Eanna »

Great post, thanks Nestor
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...
hubird

Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by hubird »

yes, good points, Nestor.
It's still good to realize that there's a studio level which we poor amateures and semi professionals hardly can imagine.
It gives a wider perspective to the discussion.

I once was in the mastering studio used by Cold Cut in London, deep down in a extremely isolated cellar, and I was deeply impressed.
'George' turned up the volume so loud that I was thinking I was looking to a tv show with the sound off, when a band member tried to speak to me.
George definitely also was exposing for a while...
Anyway, George had so many detailed eq bands to work with, in seconds he removed the harsh peaks and made the track sound smooth, at even that volume level. And other stuff.

Yet, I really think if you know your VST pugs well, you can make mixes as good as any other charts products.
Most of the charts stuff is bullshit anyway, so why taking it as a reference?
It depends on the music, you obviously can't mix a D&B track like a Tequilera Givemerosa hitsongtrack.
A good idea, and knowledge of your plugs, is all you need.

And even then...I'm listening back to Serious Beats Vol6 now.
Popular club hits from the early dance days. Hm, some sound terrible, and not one does sound 'produced' well.
But the ideas were good, or at least on track with the new phenomenon of dance.

Moral: the more poor you are, the better ideas you should have :D
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by braincell »

I talked with an engineer yesterday who uses an SSL and is a music conservatory professor of recording and he says Ozone is good but it is not professional quality. That is the bottom line. Basically you get what you pay for. Console emulators never sound like the real thing. Software does tend to improve so I think maybe one day it will be just as good and put a lot of people out of business.

There are a lot of people these days listening on crappy sounds systems (including me). Plenty of poorly recorded historic music is sold solely based on the music and performance itself. There are times, when you go to the movie theater for instance, you want the very best sound. That is why they use real orchestras and real engineers and mastering plants with big expensive hardware.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by Neil B »

garyb wrote::lol:
nobody does real mastering with vst plugins. nobody.

mastering houses have custom designed analog and digital hardware of the highest caliber. a single eq or compressor often costs what some people make in a year. the funny thing is that's NOT what makes the mastering house great. it's just that no expense is spared if you want to be a pro.

the engineers in mastering houses are actually ENGINEERS. like, they have a degree in audio engineering from a place like MIT and can construct audio tools from scratch.

the crown of the mastering house however is the playback system, the amps, the speakers and most importanly THE ROOM. more money is spent on a mastering house's room than any house that the members of Planetz live in. if you can't hear it clearly, how can you make clear decisions?

of course, there are levels to everything. i spent a several thousand on playback, speakers, room, etc and i do mastering with Scope. but don't get it twisted. my mixes and masters sound great, but i don't do REAL mastering. no one pays me thousands or gives me points on movies grossing nine figures and while it could happen by some fluke of good fortune i suppose, i probably am not in line for a grammy.

:P :)
Ears are useful too - don't forget about a good pair of ears. Worth a fortune. :)
Neil

And may I add that it's now nearly 3 months without Scope and I am seriously missing the quality of my scope stuff to support my Cubase/VST's.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by garyb »

yes, of course.
ears to hear and then experience to analyze....
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braincell
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by braincell »

One could argue that since it won't be listened to in a mastering studio, the room mastering it in should be as close as possible to the average room in dimensions and materials.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by Nestor »

braincell wrote:One could argue that since it won't be listened to in a mastering studio, the room mastering it in should be as close as possible to the average room in dimensions and materials.
Mmm, no…, this is not the approach you are looking for when mastering for the many.

If you were to reproduce the possible ambiences where an album could be played that would bring you madness, it is simply impossible to do that because there are too many situations out there quite different from each other, particularly today where hundreds of thousands of people are listening music through headphones using their cell phones.

The approach is more mathematical than physical I guess, you need to work the acoustics of your album, kind of reverse engineering the sound, based in the experience of so many amazing people and their books, like Paul White, for instance.

I believe it is not practical to think about “materials” and “dimensions” because they are too subjective. Anyway, through a general mathematically proven mastering approach, taking care of most dangerous frequencies, you can still achieve a pretty good result in most devices used and places people listen music at.

Of course, once you cross the line of the possible, it doesn’t matter how good an album has been mastered, it will sound wrong.
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hubird

Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by hubird »

Mixing with low volume levels on nearfields reduces already the acoustic influence of the mixing room.
Testing a mix on 'inferior' soundsystems doesn't hurt also.
But I agree with Nestor that it isn't a good idea to intendently choose for an inferior mixing/mastering room.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by garyb »

braincell wrote:One could argue that since it won't be listened to in a mastering studio, the room mastering it in should be as close as possible to the average room in dimensions and materials.
yes, but that would be incorrect.

the idea of mastering is to produce a product that can play correctly in all or at least almost all environments. the playback system and room are designed to be as neutral and detailed as possible. mixing in a normal environment will lead to a mix that only sounds good in that particular environment. it also leads to mistakes that are a surprise, since they weren't hearable in the "mastering", but only are shown by specific playback environments. well, this explanation is pablum, but it should give the right idea....

the room is ALWAYS important in mastering. even at low volumes it has an effect that can over-emphasize or hide anomolies. one can certainly do the job without the correct tools, but it's definitely better to have the right ones.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by fra77x »

For me the most important is to know your monitors. And the A-B comparison stage with other mixes. I can do it in different rooms and ok i can also do it with different monitors. I have never tried a real studio room and yes that should have a good influence to the sound. But because i had a very bad room when i was learning and struggled myriad of hours to learn how to do it right there, now i have some experience and i can do it almost everywhere. I always use low levels and i study my waveforms. Yes i work bass with 5 inches monitors. I don't know how much energy i spended at the past so to be able to do that. I always use visual tools and analyzers for aid.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by garyb »

again, you can build a house with one chisel, a ruler, a hammer and a handsaw. it can be a very nice house.
no f%^king carpenter is going to suggest that it's a good idea. he will tell you to use the correct tools, correctly. using the correct tools, correctly will make the job easier, quicker and if the same care is given, with much higher quality.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by fra77x »

You are right but there are always exceptions. But yes, the procedure that most people follow ought to be the right one.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by garyb »

sure.
budget is one concern.
just because you want to do it that way, is another valid reason to use this or that. if you acheive the desired results, everything is ok.
i have material that i mixed and mastered playing on the radio, but i'm not going to fool myself into believing that it doesn't sound like it was done in my home. :)
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by fra77x »

Cool.

Well in some months somthing i'm working on will be ready. So anyone can judge the result.
I'm pretty sure you won't be able to identify the "facilities" or the budget on that. My sound is quite "expensive".

I have some dj's (pros) friends of mine. They know how something should sound. But i know better...

But i don't suggest my procedure for anyone. It's life threatening.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by Nestor »

I already want to leasten at it! :wink:
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by braincell »

In the digital world, there ought to be more than one mix available. An earbud mix, a car mix, etc. This is totally possible. Give the buyer more choices.
hubird

Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by hubird »

sure, but this has nothing to do with the mix/mastering room subject.
Different aims for mixes is more about the amount of compression, stereo width and the like.
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by Nestor »

braincell wrote:In the digital world, there ought to be more than one mix available. An earbud mix, a car mix, etc. This is totally possible. Give the buyer more choices.
Well, this is a good idea... why to restrict ourselves to do just one mix when most music is presented through the web? Even if it sounds weird, I did not think about this obvious option before today… Now, before getting into something like this, I would need to think about it carefully and study what would cause to the people to have several versions of the same song, and what could cause to me if they mistake and start saying: “this song sounds really bad”, because they have messed them up.

Now, when the music is packed in a CD or similar media, you have to get to the old "one mix method".

Anyway, thank you for the idea, it is pretty cool.
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Nestor
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Re: iZotope Nectar, mixing vocals

Post by Nestor »

Nevertheless, I remember I was once in a bus stop in Glasgow and while I was waiting for the bus to give me a lift, I was reading a “Computer Music” magazine issue where there was a debate about how good the digital software was doing against the hardware world. In those days we had kind of a 50/50 division against each other, musicians and studio guys were all talking about that, everybody was in the same discussion, but this was about 10 years ago...

Today, there are many amazing, really awfully great plugins that can do wonders without you realizing if the job was done with hardware or software. Not everything can be covered through digital means yet, but quite a lot it is already giving us almost perfect, or straight perfect results.

Said that, I am totally confident that in just two or three years or so (if mankind does not destroy itself before), we will get to such a perfection in software development that we will be able to master songs with the precision achieved by big studios. I bet this day will arrive rather soon! In the other hand, hardware will be design only to fulfill the needs of the digital world, except for amps, to a certain extent.

For instance, let remember now: Brainworks with their amazing superb sound. Nomad Factory that I respect to the bone, amazing software, amazing people, I give them a 10. U-He, with the most amazing synthesizers you can imagine for a few dollars. Then you have, no more no less, “Plugin Allience”, where you will find some truly exceptional software plugins and most innovative ideas and restless acoustic engineers. Well, there are many other great ones, the list is rather long…

I guess the guys of the big studios up there with their thousands and even hundreds of thousands of dollars spent in exceedingly elite, fashionable gear, will hate to admit that software is biting their legs already… They will deny, over and over again, of course, that software can sound as good as many of their expensive hardware sound, chiefly when they are faced with losing their status quo and their jobs, which gives them the feeling of being exclusive and untouchable in the market. Well big boys, sorry but you have to get ready, the market is shifting everything upside down… the music market is changing and changing dreadfully fast… we will soon be able to emulate everything else that is not yet correctly emulated, only with software, the only frontier would be knowledge, talent and experience.
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