some thoughts on shamanism

[kensuguro]

thought maybe some of you can elaborate on a little muse I wrote about shamanism and its alternative existence in modern society:
http://tmblr.co/Zk2-PxkWo0jo

[braincell]

Art is information and information is knowledge but by calling art "knowledge" we infer that it is inherently a good thing. There is bad knowledge. I struggle with this. Would you call elephant paintings art? Anything that satisfies our insatiable appetite is deemed good or useful. The similarity between artists and shaman is that both work in the realm of fiction which is useful only for entertainment purposes. I am very concerned however that because of our enormous imaginations, we tend to blur the line between fiction and reality. That is very dangerous for the future of mankind. At a time when science is making rapid progress, I see too many people going in the other direction towards superstition and what I would maybe not so charitably describe as lies. We don't have as much freedom of thought as we think we do since children are brainwashed by their parents and society. In birds this is called "imprinting." A baby duck will follow around the first larger creature it sees within the first 3 days of hatching. It will think you are its mother. People are the same. They believe in God which is totally fake. There is no proof of the existence of God and there never will be yet so many people are so sure about God since they feel it in their "gut." You should not go by your feelings as evidence. That is what schizophrenics do. That is insane.

[jksuperstar]

Shit, you couldn't be further from reality. The only mechanism we have to experience the world is through our bodies. Ignoring that, ignoring feeling, is a complete denial of what your reality is. Ignoring feeling, is the greatest conformal "imprint" you can do to yourself. You loose all authenticity of yourself that way. Your reality is defined and validated only through someone else.

That's not to say you should be blown around by your emotions. But to dismiss your feelings and emotions, what a disservice to yourself that would be.

And there is no good or bad knowledge. Application of knowledge to do harm and cause suffering is vastly different than knowledge itself.

[hubird]

this was the question:
quote Ken: So are shamans actually educators? Because then the relationship between the shaman and the beneficiary becomes a nurturing relationship, leading to independence, or maybe even the beneficiary becoming a shaman (educator) at some point. -end quote.

Mostly priests, shamans, magicians etc. try to be seen as exclusive, so they claim to be special.
That states a dependancy relationship to them.
Science basicly states the opposit: individual-independent checks are the principle: if you can give one proved example of the opposite my statement is wrong.

So it depends: if you believe in supra-natural knowledge you probably have to accept or confirm the exclusive role of the enlighted shamans.
If you 'believe' only in scientificly based knowledge the question about education contra dependancy actually isn't really relevant, as beyond scientific knowledge there's is no knowledge, only phantasy.

The only mechanism we have to experience the world is through our bodies. Ignoring that, ignoring feeling, is a complete denial of what your reality is.

Body = feelings ?
There are more ways to experience the world.
A MRI scan, a statistic survey, a dream may be, etc.

[kensuguro]

The similarity between artists and shaman is that both work in the realm of fiction which is useful only for entertainment purposes. I am very concerned however that because of our enormous imaginations, we tend to blur the line between fiction and reality. That is very dangerous for the future of mankind.

"fiction" I think is too broad of a term to encompass what artists and shamans work with. (though I do agree that "reality" or verbose realism is usually NOT their primary concern) Speaking only of artists, I think there are some that deal with a purely abstract form of creativity, whereas many creations are byproducts of real life phenomenons. I think these capture historical moments, viewpoints, ideals in a non literal way, which from a historical point of view is much more than just entertainment. To a degree, I think pop culture even has this quality. So sure, while there might not be concrete things to learn from a fictional creation if we look at individual instances, when they are collected, organized, and compared, they become non-fictional artifacts that serve as way to look into the minds of the creators.

[braincell]

I agree with you as a form of illustration, metaphors can be useful also art and fiction can incorporate facts, lessons and history which is useful, also music and art can relax a person which is useful. It works the other way often though with art pushing lies and misconceptions.

[hubird]

I agree with you as a form of illustration, metaphors can be useful also art and fiction can incorporate facts, lessons and history which is useful, also music and art can relax a person which is useful. It works the other way often though with art pushing lies and misconceptions.

Screenshot 2014-01-27 22.08.02.png (89.63 KiB) Viewed 1903 times

[Look! Just a +1 is sufficient ]

[hubird]

no one?

[garyb]

what, the braincell quote? it's true enough.

...or you like the picture of flowers, or...?

shamans may actually be able to tap into deeper knowledge or communicate with hyperdimensional beings, but i generally advise against it. of course, it's not always that good of an idea to disrespect or kill the local kami either. but if said multidimensional being is malevolant, well it's good to have someone who can repel it. so these things could be said to be about vibes, but most people aren't interested in good vibes these days, judging by popular culture. no one except Thomas...

[Bud Weiser]

what, the braincell quote? it's true enough.

"This post was made by braincell who is currently on your ignore list"

Now,- how to ignore pictures of flowers ?



Bud

[Mr Arkadin]

You know I saw a documentary following some guy up the Amazon or Congo or some such to find untouched tribes (no it wasn't Heart of Darkness!) and I was hugely disappointed in the seeing the Shamen. I guess you get taught one idea of what they are. Seeing the reality was saddening. A group of old blokes, taking so many local 'herbs' that they were just sitting around with tons of snot pouring out of their noses. I can see that in a squat in south east London if I really want to.

Not much enlightenment seemed to be going on (and I bet they wish they had a fridge to raid after when they got the munchies).

[dawman]

Ya'll be tripping.
Im driving back through Colorada and plan on getting toasted at a local weed club.
Then sit in the mountains watching the sunset in search of a parallel universe.
When I realize it's all a bunch of shit, I will just be happy I got a buzz to drive through Kansas the worlds most boring 8 hour wheatfiled in the world.
Once I re visist the massive recruiting grounds/ghettos created by the Great Society, I know again why I am passing through my old home to create my own private Idaho.
There, I shall finsih off the weed as I talk to Fish and Birds to better get touch with my inner self.
Maybe a portable scope rig using Celmos Wave as a Sci Fi Thermin might cause the Blu Cat and Bass to come up to the surface where I can talk them into cooking them with the finest Beer Batter and Spices.

[hubird]

sorry guys, you don't look good enough...
but once you see it you can't not see it anymore!
comon...at least one person

[hubird]

you don't see a letter 'S' in the pic?

[jksuperstar]

That whore of a bee is contemplating doodling all the flowers. Be the bee....

Jimmy...careful, this medical grade stuff that has become legal raises the bar way up high...
(not mad, but definitely red-eyed)

[Roland Kuit]

I see the letters:
S E X

And art is real:
Ceci n'est pas une pipe!

[hubird]

I see the letters:
S E X

now that's what you call a '+1'

[Look! Just a +1 is sufficient ]

[wayne]

Well, there is still some very real magic in this ancient land. In places the incessant noise hasn't been to yet.

[Nestor]

Magic is in the beat of every heart...