Man vs Maschine - the next level of gear lust.

[dante]

My discussion here is an offshoot from a discussion with djmicron here http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32337

This is to do with my increasing perception that musical output will be just as much a function of the interface as knowledge.

After watching 'Group of Light' dubstep from heaven video, and now this video of the new Maschine Studio :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXJ7e5vZ2nk

and not withstanding that professionally made demos can sometimes raise expectations above reality, the introduction paragraph to a Future Music review of this new machine reads as follows:

"Lets face it. Everybody loves Maschine. You might not need one. You might not have any intention of switching DAW. And you may already have enough drum and synth sounds to sink a million sonic battleships. But by God, you still want one."

Beneath all this hype, I still have the sneaking suspicion that, although one may have knowledge and a million sounds, its this advanced interface that will ultimately propel attempts to work within these genres (in my case dubstep) to the next level.

So - question - would it be true to say the combination of talent + interface = more than the sum of its parts. And in the case of Maschine, maybe even more so.

Basically, I WANT ONE !

[djmicron]

my opinion is:
the more you know, the less they can buy users opinion with impressive promotional marketing.

Very often the marketing strategies of NI(and some other company) are based on testimonials, they pay artists and producers with a respected reputation in a specific EDM range, they pay for reviews, they also pay for viral marketing, pay for youtube and facebook likes, then the customers base is composed by users that don't know how exactly a specific sound can be obtained and by reading reviews on specialized magazines, they are always suggested.

Around EDM there is a big business, there is people buying products just because they read that for a specific sound it is the one, but electronic music comes from synthesis, so if you know how to obtain a sound, you can do it in several ways.

Wow the pads are flashing, cool, i can't do music without flashing pads and i can't do music without horizontal scrolling the plugins....

All you need is knowledge, then this is cool.

[Eanna]

Hi, so while maschine is undoubtedly sexy and pretty, I see it more as a performance tool than a studio tool..
I haven't made it out of my home studio wIth my gear.. Just my basses, pedalboard, and very occasionally my alesis micron come with me to gigs and practice..
If I ever do do the laptop thing, I might consider it.. Have been tempted over the years, but since I got ableton push earlier this year, I would prob stick with that - altho I only know push really as a studio tool, so I would need to learn it as a performance tool too..

I do think that knowledge is a big part, and that's certainly true in the studio, but as a performance tool, maschine looks like the dogs....

I'm always wary of companies with big marketing budgets.. Us Scope users here on planetz are neseccarily the kinds of folk that see past marketing!!

[dante]

Yes, but in any discussion that is based on 'seeing past marketing' we must equally see past it in both positive and negative sense.

Marketing rarely works work on a dud product ( the old 'can't polish a turd' theory ).

Lets say for argument sake though that I accept djmicrons position of 'more about knowledge than the machine'.

If this is true, it still leaves me with an unanswered question, and for arguments sake, lets also remove the studio vs live distinction as well.

For artists like Shay Dan - the Dubstep from Heaven track ( http://youtu.be/bamVGAmv4Qs ) IMHO represents someone who obviously is knowledgeable about Scope, production, synthesis etc - a truly 'end-to-end' guy. But here's the thing : Could he (or even would he) have made the same or similar track WITHOUT the Arturia Spark and Maschines ? Let's say using JUST scope (synths and production) and a DAW like Cubase/Live/Reason ?

[fra77x]

Do you mean the granularish - syncopaded sounds? It reminds me of a reaktor instrument named finger. It's very easy.
Program different effects and trigger them by midi notes. You can do it with modular. Every note should trigger a different fx or apply a new one above the others.

[dante]

Still doesn't answer the question.

[fra77x]

from wikipedia//

[] Production techniques
Glitch is often produced on computers using modern digital production software to splice together small "cuts" (samples)
of music from previously recorded works. These cuts are then integrated with the signature of glitch music:
beats made up of glitches, clicks, scratches, and otherwise "erroneously" produced or sounding noise.
These glitches are often very short, and are typically used in place of traditional percussion or instrumentation.
Skipping CDs, scratched vinyl records, circuit bending, and other noise-like distortions figure prominently into the creation of rhythm and feeling in glitch; it is from the use of these digital artifacts that the genre derives its name. However, not all artists of
the genre are working with erroneously produced sounds or are even using digital sounds. Some artists also use digital synthesizer
such as the Clavia Nord Modular G2 and Elektron Machinedrum and Monomachine.

Popular software for creating glitch includes trackers like Jeskola Buzz and Renoise,
as well as modular software like Reaktor, Ableton Live, Reason, AudioMulch, Bidule, SuperCollider,
Usine, FLStudio, Max/MSP, Pure Data, and ChucK. Circuit bending, the intentional short-circuiting of
low power electronic devices to create new musical devices, also plays a significant role on the hardware end of glitch music and its creation.



---------

So create some glitch sounds. With anything, most of the time with granular.

Load them in the sampler. Program the beats. Add some synths. Do the midi triggered effect trick where needed.

Do the mic trick.

Be happy.

Of course go and get maschine if you like it, it's quite nice.

But you can use midi notes as the pads. Pots are everywhere.

So (my opinion) the answer is yes he could do it, you can do it and to be sure i can do it. (without maschine)

[dante]

Well, it (Maschine Studio) will be over 1 large in AU$, not something I'd splash lightly, so I'll wait for some more opinions & thought.

So far from this thread I'd take it as 3 votes that say you don't need them though.

[garyb]

if you really want pads, akai makes a controller that's cheap and good, an old drum machine like a roland R8 has great pads and midi, a keyboard's keys work, there are a million sampling drum machines, samplers, STS samplers, modular, vst samplers...Maschine is a cool package, but it certainly isn't the only way to do that music. in any case, you have to get the sounds and samples in order before the grand performance...

if you like it, buy it, by all means. i'm sure it makes certain things easier since it's already for a certain job. then again, it's probably not as automatic as NI might want to suggest and if it was, then it's probably best ignored...

i suspect that you already have what you need, but that this might be a good gadget anyway.

[Eanna]

Its almost certainly not as automatic as the promo vids make it seem.
Good marketing will enhance the positives. Maschine is all about quck turnaround on performing prepared tracks.. And these users featured on their vids are talented at making things seem easy to do, easy to perform.. Like an actor makes pretending to be someone else easy.

Check this dude using his mpc to perform a set of samples to create a glitchy dubstep set..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmEhCDRvQKA

I think you can absolutely do dubstep and glitch without maschine. Autechre, the aphex twin, and squarepusher has been chopping samples since the 90's.. And now we have granular synth tool in software that makes it easy.. Me, I like Granite..
But for performance, anything with pads is a good idea. Heck, a forty-dollar akai lpd8 would work!

[jhulk]

you dont need to use maschine to create dub step

most wobble bases were made years ago and was done in drum and bass in the early 90,s

we used s950 for drums and mpc60

ensoniq asr10 for chopping which i still use to this day

wobble bases are just tempo lfo to filter cutoff

and you could easily create a wobble bass modular in scope

in fact theres a good one in flexor that assaf did

if you want a good wobble bass mike you speakers from a wobble bass sound and record that we used to do it to tape with tape compression

[jhulk]

with my asr10 for pads i use the korg pad control as it gives me 16pads for single hit drum creation

and the x/ypad is great for doing vector synthesis on the ensoniqs

bcmodular will have a template for a korg pad control

its all about chopping and i use my asr10

but a good program is recycle and you can create chops to use in reason which is a good dubstep program to use

if going the audio loop route then ableton is very good and is what prodigy uses now mix of dub/harcore/rave type music they produce

[Bud Weiser]

if you really want pads, ... , an old drum machine like a roland R8 has great pads and midi ...

Too cool reading yours as also jhulk´s posts here !
Old Roland R-8 is exactly what I´m using as a MIDI pad controller in my rig.
16 pads / 5 banks, each of the velocity sensitive pad´s MIDI data transmission separately user adjustable for MIDI note and MIDI channel and built like a tank.
Who wants more ?
I still have all the PCM cards ever made for this machine and in a live synth jam it makes cool sounding patterns even in standalone mode.

Bud

[fra77x]

I upload here a glitch fx module. One is for the xite using sdram, the other for scope pci.

It's very simple just an lfo messing with the delay buffer.
It clicks a lot but it's ok for me.

to see the panel right click-> open panel

[djmicron]

dante, if you are trying to produce dubstep, you first need to know dubstep, if you think a specific product is needed, you are going in the wrong direction.
With scope you can do it and you can also do it without scope, but arturia spark libraries are really not the best way to do it, because you are going to emulate something already done.
The most of dubstep producers are very limited in synthesis knowledge and most of the job is sample based and this is the reason why pop wobble dubstep is almost dead and people is tired to listen to it again, but if you wanna do it, at least try to start from scratch, it will be more interesting.
Just my opinion.

[fra77x]

"if you think a specific product is needed, you are going in the wrong direction"

What are you talking about. It's common certain products associated with specific genres.

"but arturia spark libraries are really not the best way to do it, because you are going to emulate something already done"

Why that should be the case. Libraries don't emulate. We are using libraries to make new things.

"The most of dubstep producers are very limited in synthesis knowledge "
Are you talking serious?

"and most of the job is sample based "
Why is that bad? Sample based is a lot of contemporary music. And unique and organic. I think you are just in the "i should learn synthesis" phase.

"pop wobble dubstep is almost dead "
Almost dead, dead. No it isn't at all. It's quite new. Why are you talking that stuff?

"and people is tired to listen to it again"
Are you people's advocate? I bet you know all the people. It isn't the same stuff. It's a genre.

"but if you wanna do it, at least try to start from scratch, it will be more interesting"
You have that awful didactic tone. Go get some air.

"Just my opinion."
Because we where afraid that these were states law.

[djmicron]

fra77, if you read the story of this thread that started from another thread, you'll better understand.
If you know synthesis, you can do more interesting things and if you use dubstep sample libraries, you will make less interesting things, that's what i mean.
Then do what you feel to do, just my opinion, in respect of what others will do, clear?

not dictatic tone ,just have not time to make smiles,.

[fra77x]

"If you know synthesis, you can do more interesting things and if you use dubstep sample libraries, you will make less interesting things, that's what i mean."

That is not true. Synthesis is for certain elements. Sampling is for others. It's better to actually know before starting to teach and make conclusions.

I bet you can't synthesize cymbals. Or you can? Can you synthesize any natural instrument at all that doesn't sounds like s&&t?
Electronic music is also about recording. Synthesized elements are further sampled and mangled in most genres. So what are talking about?

"Then do what you feel to do, just my opinion, in respect of what others will do, clear?"
I just don't like wrong statements.

"not dictatic tone ,just have not time to make smiles,"
Smiles are good. Why are you in such a hurry? Creativity is all about to be able to smile and feeling good. It's a recreational art.

[djmicron]

we are talking about wobble basses and dubstep, so synthesis is the most of the arrangement.

The arturia spark is a library of drum samples taken from other samples taken from other sample taken from other samples taken from drum machines, yes you can do it with synthesis, or you can do it with samples.

No conclusions here, just constructive.

[Tau]

I know Maschine (don't have one), and I agree that it doesn't present anything unique in terms of sonic textures or synthesis or what-have-you. What it does do, is create a workflow with its physical interface that is extraordinary (to me)- while offering a huge sound palette taken from various NI "engines" and the ability to host VSTs, or use it as one.

Can you have that experience with something else? Probably... Akai is certainly trying to compete, but its products seem a bit lackluster when compared. It's not just about lights and beautiful graphics, it's beyond that, it's about how it makes you feel when making music... And the Machine excels at that, in my opinion, because it makes the user feel important by showing and highlighting all pertinent information in terms of light shows, graphics and a neat layout, instead of hiding super powerful parameters and making you go look for them instead of concentrating on the feel. It's all immediate.

The results you get out depend on what you put in, though... Your own samples, your own patches, your own movements... even Scope can be controlled by Maschine... No real reason not to sound like yourself just because you're using a combination of a step sequencer and pads... And if you feel you're not going anywhere with it, then it's just not for you, and there'll be plenty of buyers on the second hand market.

I disagree that a Maschine is necessary for any genre, dance music or not... Techno is about 40 years old, 20 years ago we already had "jungle" and drum and bass, so all necessary sequencing and interfacing tools have been around for long, even for dubstep It may get you quicker to the "standards", but for innovators, it's just another tool to work with.