i guess hillbillies aren't so stupid

[garyb]

yep...

people expecting some authority to come make everything nice...people thinking that "rights" means that the authority is the ultimate care-taker, like mother. "i have the right to be coddled and taken care of forever!" instead of "i'm grown up now, i'll take care of it"... stupidity, selfishness and laziness are encouraged over learning, responsibility and personal action.

i was watching a tv show that a client gave me about Braincell's much maligned "Hillbillies"(called Hillbilly Blood, stupid name). these guys are poor, but anything but lazy or stupid.

in the episode, it's fall and the two friends need to cut a bunch of firewood from the trees on their land so that they will have fuel for the winter. they have a two man handsaw, and a spitting maul, but a chainsaw would be better. they go to the general store, but the professional chainsaw they need is $1000. there's a used one for $650, but they have no money at all. the show follows the events in one week.

needing money, they go home thinking about how to get $650 from nothing before the used saw is sold. they pass a house with walnuts all over the yard. a huge walnut tree has dropped them and no one seems to be cleaning them up. they go to the door and politely ask the old lady if they can clean up the walnuts from the yard. she says, "sure, clean my rain gutters too". so, they clean the old lady's roof and gutters and get a lot of walnuts.

raw walnuts are valuable, but not as valuable as processed walnuts. they shell the walnuts and with a home engineed press made from scrap lumber and an old automobile steering wheel, they make a quart(liter) of walnut oil and then also have two quarts of hulled walnuts. they trade the walnuts and oil, worth about $65 to a guy with a bunch of scrap metal whose wife will use the stuff for baking. the metal they get is high carbon steel in the form of broken industrial saw-mill blades. the junk metal is worth about $100.

they then forge a handfull of REALLY nice knives, including a couple of skinning knives and a big bowie knife. they use some deer antler for the handles, making really nice, high quality knives out of scrap.

the knives are taken to the flea market, where they trade the knives for a bunch of junk including some tools and a pound and a half(1/2 to 3/4 of a kilo) of dried ginseng.

the ginseng is traded for a motorcycle that works, but is partially disassembled. they put the motorcycle together, it runs as the previous owner promised and they trade the bike for the chainsaw. elapsed time, about a week...

so, these guys who rely on nobody but themselves and their knowledge, show chops for business, engineeering, metalwork and artisan fabrication, mechanical work, and the get up and go to find a way to get what they need without harming others. they made a good name for themselves with each trading partner and acted ethically at every step of the way.

if i compare this to the average sophisticated city person, i can easily see that the regular citizen would simply be screwed. he would die. the city person wouldn't have the knowledge, the respect or the attitude needed to survive...

[hubird]

a nice story
A FB file with 500 friends won't help you so much in a critical situation.
On the contrary, put a country man in a big city and he or she could be lost, from finding a partner to finding his way in the jungle of a complicated society.
Both hypothetical settings are a leading theme for a lot of movies and tv shows.

[kensuguro]

I kind of see both settings (country side / city) as pretty similar. The fact that the hillbillies were in the country side was not what paved their way to success. Resourceful people with an engineer like mind who are able to focus on a goal, make a plan, and execute on the plan with a certain amount of accuracy tend to be successful in whatever setting. No matter where you go, it seems to me that these "doers" occur at a fairly consistent probability. Sure, they don't naturally become successful without effort, but these types of people seem to have important traits that allows them to put forth an order of magnitude more effort than the average lazy ass joe.

Skills necessary for survival are different for each setting, and I think the "doers" adapt to whatever is required to either survive or thrive. In a city it may be ways to grow your professional network, working Linked In, brown nosing your boss, delivering a great pitch, etc.. People who are successful in the city tend to put in a lot of effort in those areas and train themselves to hone skills necessary to excel in these areas. For the hillbillies, it is much more tactile and physical. Fixing things, figuring out how to get materials, figuring out logistics, etc. Either way, the amount of hard work, thought, and driving force these people have is usually several notches above people of the mediocre group.

In my mind, it's really about hard work no matter where you go or what industry you're in. In the city, I still have not met a single person who is sustainably successful while being lazy. There are some lazy people that are successful temporarily, but the success only buys them time to get their act together and start putting in hard work. Or else the next guy who works harder and smarter will claim the success, ripping lazy Joe apart while he's still preaching to people how he "figured it all out". (people like to worship lazy successful people)

Doing things in the real world and doing them well is never easy. But the structure of the problem is simple. There's a certain aspect of any task that makes it difficult.. mentally, physically, psychologically.. If you focus on that small part, and practice, practice, practice.. work, work, work. Think, think think. then before you know it, you're better than 90% of the population who have given up or simply didn't give it enough thought. So i don't think it's the context or surroundings that matter, it's the mentality.

[garyb]

that is exactly right, Ken!

those guys were well spoken and hardly ignorant about the world. don't make the mistake of thinking that they are uneducated. they know more about how things work than most. they CHOSE to stay out of the city. both characters in the show could easily survive the city life. since they are already used to hard work in life, they would have no problem succeeding. people who are only thinking of a cushy existence would never survive in the hills, however. modern life encourages laziness and ignorance. just because these guys HAVE to be on their game to make it through the winter and to feed their families gives them a leg up and protects against sloth.

[Nestor]

I simply deny the modern degenerated mind, all tendencies that pretend to be “modern” and “exclusive”, and “advanced”, and all this false sophistry all together. I definitely agree with the fact that this people, is not only much more skilled, but which is way more important, they are more HUMAN than the rest of us, not always, but the kind of people you are talking about are a joy to share your life with.

Their skills may be great, but their emotional maturity and intelligence is what I really most appreciate from them.

The sense of “family” it is also much stronger, which is well appreciated too.

Our society is a degenerated and degenerating society, in big advanced cities people tend to judge everything for what you have, and not for what you are, and they evaluate you by which kind of clothes you have on, if your cloth do not coincide with their prejudices, you are out of their scope of life.

I definitely support natural life, and detest degeneration.

[garyb]

yep.

it turns out these guys are more hooked in than i had thought. i knew that they were well read by how they spoke, but they're also computer literate, Facebook, you tube videos and all. another way to make money, survival retreats in late spring early summer. how to pay the electric bill? go up to the hills, build a sluice box and a pump to carry water up the hill, powered by the stream itself and made out of junk to find gem stones. dig up a few sapphires and you're good for the year. kill a deer and make jerky, the family eats in the dead of winter.

what are all these environmental laws really aimed at? people like these, who can take care of themselves, who don't need lessons or fancy doctors for childbirth. who don't need insurance and who don't owe anyone anything, with the exception of their friends and neighbors who make up community with them, and are only owed in the sense of fiar trade with each other. those laws are like the Sheriff of Nottingham keeping the wild areas for Nobles to hunt in only, so that the commoner poor and those with simple tastes can't feed themselves and must consent to serfdom and servitude...

wow! what a rant! well, it was fun...

[hubird]

I don't see much reasons to glofify or romantisize countryside life so much.

...they are more HUMAN than the rest of us,
...their emotional maturity and intelligence is what I really most appreciate from them.
...The sense of “family” it is also much stronger, which is well appreciated too.

you see, such qualifications are quite primitive.
In example, you can't be 'more human' than another human beeing.

Social control on how you look and what you wear can be much more rigorous in small communities in the country than in the anonimous city.
Emotional maturity is bigger than in more complicated societies? Ha, my ass!
etc.

It's too cheap to make simple qualifications.

The pro's and con's of small communities against big city life are wel known and broadly discussed in literature, science and amusement industrie.

Personally I prefer city life, as I hate social control and simple minds.

Simple minds?
Yes, every year when I visit small communities in countries like Slowakia or anywhere where the countryside is big enough for having poor and isoltaed small villages I meet them:
You ask them something, they in hardly understandable English say 'wait, my brother is coming and he will know', they invite you to sit down for a while, you offer them a drink, and after three big pints still nothing happened, they just get more drunk than they were already at 16:00 hr, and talk shit and know nothing about anything except the national soccerclub, and they look a bit angry if you just wanne leave them bunch of losers.
You knew it before: they just are after your company, as they don't have anything to do or to think about.
One of them came after me and asked 2 euro for all the information he had given...
Ma-an I'm always glad to get in my bus and drive along then

[borg]

yep...
i was watching a tv show ...

exactly, a tv show... doomsday preppers, hillbilly blood,... I can't believe someone like you, who has obviously read a lot, and have shown to possess a critical mind, takes this for granted.

the production team searched for the right characters, they probably guided the cast to the right direction. There are enough people in the city who will survive easily in nature, some will probably be much better at it than the hillbillies. there will definetely be hillbillies that will do great in such circumstances, most won't to the degree you are talking about. what i believe to be true, is that they could have a bigger sense of community, but that might just be the other way around: very cautious and violent to strangers, as I have seen in this movie 'down by law'

come on, gary... a tv show...

[next to nothing]

"if i compare this to the average sophisticated city person, i can easily see that the regular citizen would simply be screwed. he would die. the city person wouldn't have the knowledge, the respect or the attitude needed to survive..."

The city person would probably use a Mastercard instead of using 1500$ worth of working hours to get something worth 650$

[garyb]

of COURSE it's a tv show! the scenes aren't real!

the people actually live in the Hills in NC. they are real people who ARE quite sharp, even to make the tv show. the press to make the walnut oil made from scap is real. the forge made from scrap was real as well. they have been making and selling knives for years, long before the show. the sawmill built from a 70 year old truck is real too. i'm only looking at what is being demonstrated, not the hokey story.


NTN, it's just an example of what can be done with minimal resources by someone who is sharp and learned, regardless of where they come from and assuming that they are allowed to utilize the resources that are already available. yes, a city-folk-type would use his credit card and become even more in debt. these guys end up owning their lives and the stuff in it outright.

[hubird]

... i'm only looking at what is being demonstrated, not the hokey story.

sure, If I may answer, but is your conclusion (hillbillies have more survival qualities than city folks) what is demonstrated?

[garyb]

i thought it was in the title of the post....

[hubird]

hm, I took it the other way around: what is demonstrated (on tv) is actualy the 'hokey story', the conclusions would then be yours.
You confirmed it anyway, that the conclusions are yours, so that's clear.
But then Borg's 'point' still stands, namely that taking a tv show as a reference for your or any conclusions is weak.

I can see your joy tho, looking at a tv show about survival adventures of the people you never read of in the papers, never harming anything or anyone.

In the movie The Edge with Anthony Hopkins it's surprisingly him, the educated and succesful one, who has the survival skills, practically and mentally.
This comes more close to Ken's conclusions: it just depends on you.
He's proves it, I forsee him starting a restaurant someday...

But I never thought of drawing conclusions from that movie with such a socio-cultural impact as yours.

Btw, I know of several survival strategies in a city culture, tho not by own experience .
Like using your intelligent communication qualities to find a cook of a restaurant giving you the plastic sack full of meal restants of the evening, or by performing as a street musicion, or by buying clothes and more in second hand stores, or signing in for free meal packages for minimum income people, or selling the monthly 'Homeless' paper and then asking the paper back saying honestly it's to sell it again, etc.

To make things even more relative: they say it's not us humans who tamed the dog, it's the dog which made us giving him his daily food and more, in exchange for some barks a day and bringing bossie his newspaper.
It's the dog which wins most from this relationship.

Even tectonic plates are fighting each other to survive.
Their weapon: mass, or gravity if you want, so the strategy is simple, but effective
My conclusion: you need the skills which are relevant for the survival environment you have to live in, be it industrial or rural.

[garyb]

what do you mean?

these people are definitely hillbillies. they are not just tv hillbillies, but are real people who really live in those hills. they really know what they are doing. i have already confirmed thier existance. they really make home-forged knives. they really make survival contraptions and live more or less "off the grid", to the degree that they wish to. the part that is staged are the actual adventures. the skills shown are real-life, and they are not even uncommon for men to have in general, although the kind of knowledge that they posses is rare in this present decade compared to 50-70 years ago, when almost all Americans had at least some practical knowledge in all these subjects and was self sufficient if needed.

again, the point, the "conclusion" drawn is that hill people aren't necessarily stupid, even though many call them "ignorant" and "inbred". of course, the "inbred" tag has been covered. they are a bit inbred, but not nearly to the degree of your(or anyone else's) Queen. the real people in the show are not stupid by any means is my only point. oh, and that they can survive with or without civilization, unlike most of the people here. if civilization was gone, they could recreate it from raw materials, if needed. yes, they are that educated.

digging in the dumpster for food is not the same as having a garden and hunting for all of one's sustanance. begging and hunting are not the same. there was no begging in the chainsaw story. every transaction was a win-win fair trade. if you think life doesn't happen like this in the real world, i feel sorry for the fact you have to live where you do.

we didn't tame the dog? huh. i always thought the traditional dog was a sucker that has to work and that he was the emergency food supply.

as to tectonic plates fighting, this is personification. terctonic plates do their thing until they are no more. they do not worry about survival, nor does it matter to them.

[hubird]

like I added to my former post now, you need the tools relevant for the environment you live in.
It was about survival, wasn't it?

[garyb]

yes, like understanding of basic math, physics, medicine, how to get along with others, what is poison and what is good to eat, and so on so that you can handle your own business.

if you don't need to know these basic things, then you are ignorant and are a slave or a child.

anyway, again, the POINT is that these guys are not ignorant or stupid, even though they don't look like winners by the standards of Beverly Hills, or whatever place represents wealth and power. this has nothing to do with city vs. country. city vs. country is NOT my point.

since city vs. country is what you are fixated on, i'll vomit up this truism(obviously, generalizations are not reality, although they often reflect reality).
in the country, people judge you by your character and how you treat others, in other words, what you do, the fruits of your works.
in the city, people judge you by what you have, or what you posses as the results of your works.

[hubird]

...in the city, people judge you by what you have, or what you posses as the results of your works.

you must be living in the wrong (city) circles...I mean, my experiences are totally different.

[garyb]

really?



i can see that you have an agenda to be contrary. i don't mind. it's entertaining.


again, i just said that hillbillies don't seem that stupid.

they can even make a very entertaining television show. the rest of the conversation is just a reflection of people's attitudes and points of veiw.
personally, i'm barely qualified to live in a cushy, easy place like the city(where others find it so hard, but probably not nearly as hard as they would find living in the middle of nowhere, it depends), let alone in a hardcore place like the countryside. real life doesn't have emergency clinics or shelters or the salvation army or an expert to fix the shelter for you, and if you want to get drunk, you gotta make it yourself...the outdoors is pretty tough without supplies even for hillbillies, especially when it snows...maybe no refrigerators, grocery stores or tractor trailers...

i don't think that a hillbilly would have trouble understanding my point about them not being stupid, at least not all of them.

[Nestor]

I can assure you that the hillbillies will have rather soon the opportunity to show how well they do and how intelligent they are. Life is going to be upside down at any moment anyway, and they will become the real “educated” people, exactly as you are telling Gary.

[hubird]

I can assure you that the hillbillies will have rather soon the opportunity to show how well they do and how intelligent they are. Life is going to be upside down at any moment anyway, and they will become the real “educated” people, exactly as you are telling Gary.

ah, a new world is coming, again.
the hillbillies are taking over