The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
well, if you ask me, I think it's not 'true'.
Are riots 'true'?
It depends, I wouldn't call what happens on the Tahrir Square as 'riots', like Nestor does.
I would call it demonstrations, in example.
So are the riots 'reality'?
There is no reality without us defining it.
zzzzz now.
Are riots 'true'?
It depends, I wouldn't call what happens on the Tahrir Square as 'riots', like Nestor does.
I would call it demonstrations, in example.
So are the riots 'reality'?
There is no reality without us defining it.
zzzzz now.
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
VALIS was published in 78 and the nick's connection is quite obvious. It was the first of 3 books he published after his 'gnosis' which was the part of his ... literary tapestry... that interested me the most. In fact I really dig his exegesis as much as his best fiction if not more, as it's the text from which his other writings were ..derived? ...distilled? Only downside to PK Dick imo is the schizo side from his use of uppers(meth) and downers. The psychoactive aka transcendental aspect of the gnosis writings were much headier imo than just the high-speed intellectualizations derived from the former (although most of those writings were quite good too eh).
And Robert Anton Wilson was likely quoting PK Dick when he said that, it was in Cosmic Trigger Vol2 iirc as well. Or more than likely both R.A.W. and PKDick were paraphrasing someone else (good artists borrow..great artists steal). RAW also later amended the statement to be "Reality is that which you can get away with" which perhaps supports the Daddy Warbucks side of this discussion more than anything else imo, unless "The Secret" really was a great revelation...
And for the record hubird, I would submit that all of us are in our own 'reality tunnels' here, you/myself/gary/nestor included. We all seem to be somewhat self-aware as well, and we've defined now how we all feel about this thread and the participants within it. What remains to be seen however is where the course of events will deviate from our preconceptions, hence my quote (however confusing the attribution may be).
And Robert Anton Wilson was likely quoting PK Dick when he said that, it was in Cosmic Trigger Vol2 iirc as well. Or more than likely both R.A.W. and PKDick were paraphrasing someone else (good artists borrow..great artists steal). RAW also later amended the statement to be "Reality is that which you can get away with" which perhaps supports the Daddy Warbucks side of this discussion more than anything else imo, unless "The Secret" really was a great revelation...
And for the record hubird, I would submit that all of us are in our own 'reality tunnels' here, you/myself/gary/nestor included. We all seem to be somewhat self-aware as well, and we've defined now how we all feel about this thread and the participants within it. What remains to be seen however is where the course of events will deviate from our preconceptions, hence my quote (however confusing the attribution may be).
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
thanks for the clarification on 'Valis'.
I was just interested
[quote:]What remains to be seen however is where the course of events will deviate from our preconceptions, hence my quote (however confusing the attribution may be).[quote]
Not sure if this is only meant as a philosophical thought or as an adivise specially to me.
My aim in this thread is trying to put the one and only truth of the initiator of the thread (and his friendly friends) in a perspective.
Historically, or military, etc.
That's why I mention the longer time needed for social change, or the still relative scale of bombing Iran, etc.
We'll see what the future brings, but for the time being I can't say I'm the first one in this thread who needs correction regarding the relationship between fantasy and reality.
Cheers anyway.
I was just interested

[quote:]What remains to be seen however is where the course of events will deviate from our preconceptions, hence my quote (however confusing the attribution may be).[quote]
Not sure if this is only meant as a philosophical thought or as an adivise specially to me.
My aim in this thread is trying to put the one and only truth of the initiator of the thread (and his friendly friends) in a perspective.
Historically, or military, etc.
That's why I mention the longer time needed for social change, or the still relative scale of bombing Iran, etc.
We'll see what the future brings, but for the time being I can't say I'm the first one in this thread who needs correction regarding the relationship between fantasy and reality.
Cheers anyway.
- Nestor
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
Certainly true Valis, every one of us and the rest of human beings out of this thread included of course, have our own reality tunnel, and this is a problem. This is a problem as long as you don’t realize and accept it, because if you don’t you will keep there for the rest of your life.
Nevertheless, everything that exists “it is true to itself”, with or without the self-consciousness needed to be aware of it. You may have wrong preconceptions about this particular “something”, but it will remain forever faithful to itself, quoting Emanuel Kant we could say: “It is what it is”. That is why reality is understood in two ways: the reality (which is more and less real) that every person builds about any particular aspect of life, people, laws, etc., and the reality which is equal to itself, without the interpretation of anyone, the thing that “it is what it is”.
An important question comes to the mind so, because there is a choice to be made: Do we REALLY want to know reality or not? Well…, forcefully, for those choosing to know reality the first thing to do is to understand that we are subjective human beings that capture only “some” portions of reality, and in most cases these portions have their own deformation already if you analyze them farther. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can get out of the trap of believing that your concepts are the most accurate, or even a worse dream than that…, that they are absolute truths which is the way of thinking that best represents utter ignorance. The more you SEE your own banality, in terms of thoughts and feelings, the more your RECOGNISE that you are a shortsighted human with a small vision, and finally the more you willingly ACCEPT the inconvenient, unpleasant truth that you are a subjective human being who’s concepts are full of what others have taught you along your way, that is to say: that you are a byproduct of your culture, family, background, friends, traumas caused for hard events, personal passions and weaknesses, imposed believes as a Muslim or as a Christian or whatever other imposed religion or atheism coming from the place you were born, political and philosophical believes, racial preconceptions, and so forth, the more you can actually see what is REALLY true, first of all about yourself and then about the rest of the world.
When you see a person full of self-love that has not inner space to breath, you know instantly that it is a particularly subjective person, the more someone loves itself the more subjective it is because the less space it has in his own inner world. People full of themselves are the most ignorant human beings this earth could nurture, and paradoxically, those who best price themselves and believe, secretly, to be above the rest of the race, that is why they tend to be racists. Those who know themselves become by this fact humble human beings, by force, because to know our real nature means to have discovered many real bad things within, many, many errors and mistakes, which are hidden and only discovered by sincere people, never by those who run away from themselves.
Truth is accessible only cleaning ourselves from the dirt of all subjectivity and this is only achievable through an awfully accurate and extremely sincere approach to what we really are deep within ourselves, it is the path of the honest ones, and frankly, it is also the path of pain, because it is painful to be sincere about ourselves and change, but it is of course also the best choice, because out of pain comes happiness, which has nothing to do with pleasure, don’t mistake one thing with the other.
In my experience, most people do not want to know reality, they rather want to run away from it as it is much easier like that, and even justify themselves constantly when faced up with their defects and mistakes, which they willingly misread as strengths and as success, when they make up failure.
The same happens with this thread, each one interprets it as it can, this is fine, anyway, what else can we do if we don’t know (based in what I said above). For instance, some people call this thread “negativity”, which is an illogical statement itself because “negativity” is a completely different concept than a “negative event”. We can agree that what is happening in the world is negative as facts are negative, war, riots and an enormous economical collapse cannot be seen as positive, but this thread is not causing these problems in the world, they already exist by themselves. The thread is talking about something negative that is happening, but this is not “negativity” in itself, all on the contrary, the reason this thread has been open and it is still on are “positive” reasons. This thread is here for us to become more conscious of what is going on (if you want to as nobody is forcing you to anything), stop rejecting the fact that our civilization has failed in its structure because our values are wrong and that we are going to reach destruction if we don’t stop basing our lives in them, that we need to change our values as a priority even more important than nurturing ourselves. This thread states that we need to change: competition for cooperation, hatred for love, destruction for construction, materialism for spiritualism, violence for peace, poverty for equal and willing distribution of goods, wars for respect and freedom, and so forth, and so forth… These are all extremely positive thoughts. Some have and will always resist any changes, but for the rest of us it is absolutely necessary to change our paradigms, ways of thinking and understanding life, so not to destroy ourselves and each other, for not disappearing as a human race because this is exactly what we are heading towards to.
1 - Negativity is described as follows: “A habitual attitude of skepticism or resistance to the suggestions, orders, or instructions of others”.
2 - Behavior characterized by persistent refusal, without apparent or logical reasons, to act on or carry out suggestions, orders, or instructions of others.
Well…, this is VERY interesting isn’t it? Because those denying this thread, by definition, are “negative people”, this is exactly what they are. The reasons for this treachery are already explained above.
Worst of all, the more you defend your own wrongness, the more you justify your own ugliness without recognizing it, the worst you become, and the more you degenerate.
Nevertheless, everything that exists “it is true to itself”, with or without the self-consciousness needed to be aware of it. You may have wrong preconceptions about this particular “something”, but it will remain forever faithful to itself, quoting Emanuel Kant we could say: “It is what it is”. That is why reality is understood in two ways: the reality (which is more and less real) that every person builds about any particular aspect of life, people, laws, etc., and the reality which is equal to itself, without the interpretation of anyone, the thing that “it is what it is”.
An important question comes to the mind so, because there is a choice to be made: Do we REALLY want to know reality or not? Well…, forcefully, for those choosing to know reality the first thing to do is to understand that we are subjective human beings that capture only “some” portions of reality, and in most cases these portions have their own deformation already if you analyze them farther. The sooner you understand this the sooner you can get out of the trap of believing that your concepts are the most accurate, or even a worse dream than that…, that they are absolute truths which is the way of thinking that best represents utter ignorance. The more you SEE your own banality, in terms of thoughts and feelings, the more your RECOGNISE that you are a shortsighted human with a small vision, and finally the more you willingly ACCEPT the inconvenient, unpleasant truth that you are a subjective human being who’s concepts are full of what others have taught you along your way, that is to say: that you are a byproduct of your culture, family, background, friends, traumas caused for hard events, personal passions and weaknesses, imposed believes as a Muslim or as a Christian or whatever other imposed religion or atheism coming from the place you were born, political and philosophical believes, racial preconceptions, and so forth, the more you can actually see what is REALLY true, first of all about yourself and then about the rest of the world.
When you see a person full of self-love that has not inner space to breath, you know instantly that it is a particularly subjective person, the more someone loves itself the more subjective it is because the less space it has in his own inner world. People full of themselves are the most ignorant human beings this earth could nurture, and paradoxically, those who best price themselves and believe, secretly, to be above the rest of the race, that is why they tend to be racists. Those who know themselves become by this fact humble human beings, by force, because to know our real nature means to have discovered many real bad things within, many, many errors and mistakes, which are hidden and only discovered by sincere people, never by those who run away from themselves.
Truth is accessible only cleaning ourselves from the dirt of all subjectivity and this is only achievable through an awfully accurate and extremely sincere approach to what we really are deep within ourselves, it is the path of the honest ones, and frankly, it is also the path of pain, because it is painful to be sincere about ourselves and change, but it is of course also the best choice, because out of pain comes happiness, which has nothing to do with pleasure, don’t mistake one thing with the other.
In my experience, most people do not want to know reality, they rather want to run away from it as it is much easier like that, and even justify themselves constantly when faced up with their defects and mistakes, which they willingly misread as strengths and as success, when they make up failure.
The same happens with this thread, each one interprets it as it can, this is fine, anyway, what else can we do if we don’t know (based in what I said above). For instance, some people call this thread “negativity”, which is an illogical statement itself because “negativity” is a completely different concept than a “negative event”. We can agree that what is happening in the world is negative as facts are negative, war, riots and an enormous economical collapse cannot be seen as positive, but this thread is not causing these problems in the world, they already exist by themselves. The thread is talking about something negative that is happening, but this is not “negativity” in itself, all on the contrary, the reason this thread has been open and it is still on are “positive” reasons. This thread is here for us to become more conscious of what is going on (if you want to as nobody is forcing you to anything), stop rejecting the fact that our civilization has failed in its structure because our values are wrong and that we are going to reach destruction if we don’t stop basing our lives in them, that we need to change our values as a priority even more important than nurturing ourselves. This thread states that we need to change: competition for cooperation, hatred for love, destruction for construction, materialism for spiritualism, violence for peace, poverty for equal and willing distribution of goods, wars for respect and freedom, and so forth, and so forth… These are all extremely positive thoughts. Some have and will always resist any changes, but for the rest of us it is absolutely necessary to change our paradigms, ways of thinking and understanding life, so not to destroy ourselves and each other, for not disappearing as a human race because this is exactly what we are heading towards to.
1 - Negativity is described as follows: “A habitual attitude of skepticism or resistance to the suggestions, orders, or instructions of others”.
2 - Behavior characterized by persistent refusal, without apparent or logical reasons, to act on or carry out suggestions, orders, or instructions of others.
Well…, this is VERY interesting isn’t it? Because those denying this thread, by definition, are “negative people”, this is exactly what they are. The reasons for this treachery are already explained above.
Worst of all, the more you defend your own wrongness, the more you justify your own ugliness without recognizing it, the worst you become, and the more you degenerate.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
All is best, as long as you don't claim the truth and I'll not be forced to believe your version of the truth 

Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
forced?
like you have to read anything here?

like you have to read anything here?
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
I knew you would react exactly like this.
Didn't take the effort tho to ad a 'somehow', or otherwise explain the principle...
Didn't take the effort tho to ad a 'somehow', or otherwise explain the principle...
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
So quick to jump on the defensive! I might have thought my statement applied to all of us present, though I appreciate your suggestion that I have the breadth of character to be subtle & snarky at the same time. In this case however I fear I was just being blatant, and not in some abstract philosophical sense. Were I to be so bold as to call you out directly to address your own peculiarities I would do as I have done before: state when and where I think you're off base clearly so that there's not the chance of confusion. I'd rather leave subtlety and guile to more humorous and interesting subjects.hubird wrote:thanks for the clarification on 'Valis'.
I was just interested
[quote:]What remains to be seen however is where the course of events will deviate from our preconceptions, hence my quote (however confusing the attribution may be).Not sure if this is only meant as a philosophical thought or as an adivise specially to me.
My aim in this thread is trying to put the one and only truth of the initiator of the thread (and his friendly friends) in a perspective.
Historically, or military, etc.
That's why I mention the longer time needed for social change, or the still relative scale of bombing Iran, etc.
We'll see what the future brings, but for the time being I can't say I'm the first one in this thread who needs correction regarding the relationship between fantasy and reality.
Cheers anyway.

- Nestor
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
There will be more and much bigger riots in the near future organized by citizens ready to lose their lives to defend their dignity and their families at any cost…, regrettably, through violence. These riots will bring enormous waves of unsettlement and extreme fury to the streets, we will see acts of ferocity as never seen before in history, believe me!
These riots will escalate into little but wild spots of civil wars located in different areas of the world. Some of them will be large scale civil wars like it will happen in Mexico. Policemen will be killed by thousands and probably even by tens of thousands, and of course because of that hundreds of thousands of civilians will die in this madness shoot in the streets. This is something which is already in the matrix of what is conceivable, it is something already unstoppable, sad to the bones, too.
If it happens for anyone of us to be in the middle of these riots, I sincerely hope that you, dear fellows and musicians alike of the Z planet, will NOT get involved on them, no matter how angry you may become about what your government could do to you. There is no hope in violence, even if we are right in what we ask the authorities to fix, violence is useless! Please, keep away from riots my friends as they will only bring more confusion and pain than solutions.
World war will also complicate and increase month after month until every one will be forced to pay attention to the situation because it has become big enough to concern us.
And this is what is going to happen in this thread:
1 – There will be people that will laugh at these two statements and will discredit them without any thinking, analysis or questioning about WHY this is being said. They will get themselves into this automatic mode they have always done and will forever do (which is a proven fact already after more than a year of insults, negativity, and even words used expressly to make people feel sad, which is deplorable), spreading their free anger against something they are not understanding or considering, that is nevertheless much bigger than them and much bigger than anyone of us and that IT IS BEING PROVEN TO BE TRUE.
2 - I will separate myself from it and will ignore and not respond to violence at all, I will respect "my word" given to Ken. I will then keep walking my path as I have always done and will bring clear thoughts out of those willing to think with me through their contributions, and they will probably do the same with the thoughts of all constructive people in this thread including me. By the way, constructive and thoughtful people in this thread are, so far, many more than those in denial.
3 – Both statements mentioned above about riots and international war are going to become realities little by little, and I will say: “Hey, was it true or pure “imagination” what I said, because it has become factual, right?” And those who were in denial and wrote many times against this realities will keep totally SILENT, as they did every time this thread was right about anything, and will wait until the next round, when I will say yet more things that will most probably become realites too. The story is going to repeat itself and truth will prevail against any likes or dislikes, as this is stronger than any of our convictions.
4 – I will always know that I have been sincere, and you will discover finally that what it lies deep down behind it all is true love and concern for my fellow human beings. I detest seeing all this suffering happening. And it is ridiculous to condemn anyone for been concerned about his own race... Those who decided to contribute will feel happy and will have taken the advantage of a deeper understanding to face up life and these hard events that await us all, preparing ourselves psychologically to endure all this FACTS. Those who were against will feel naturally sad realizing how wrong they were after all, having lost the opportunity to become better human beings facing up life and the public consciousness of the Z, which is, by far, really by far, what MOST concern them...
5 – I will keep repeating over and over again that: nobody is forced to be here in anyway, and that I strongly recommend those not liking this thread not to participate on it, as simple as that.
Finally, I will always defend the natural right of being free to think in any way I want. Nobody has any authority whatsoever to stop me thinking or to stop anyone else thinking the way they want, as long as we do it with due respect and care, freedom is a natural right. All on the contrary, the more anyone tries to distort my real intentions in this thread or tries to stop me thinking, the more it represses my thoughts or my convictions for free and without arguments or contributions, the more it will strengthen me… from here to infinity!
It is time to say thank you for your help! Please keep giving me more and more power, as this makes me stronger and stronger in my convictions and quite frankly, it deepens my understanding of our human nature.
By the way, I opened this thread because I wanted to talk about these matters with a few friends here in the Z nothing more than that, but you achieved at making this thread very successful!
Time will tell…

If it happens for anyone of us to be in the middle of these riots, I sincerely hope that you, dear fellows and musicians alike of the Z planet, will NOT get involved on them, no matter how angry you may become about what your government could do to you. There is no hope in violence, even if we are right in what we ask the authorities to fix, violence is useless! Please, keep away from riots my friends as they will only bring more confusion and pain than solutions.
World war will also complicate and increase month after month until every one will be forced to pay attention to the situation because it has become big enough to concern us.
And this is what is going to happen in this thread:
1 – There will be people that will laugh at these two statements and will discredit them without any thinking, analysis or questioning about WHY this is being said. They will get themselves into this automatic mode they have always done and will forever do (which is a proven fact already after more than a year of insults, negativity, and even words used expressly to make people feel sad, which is deplorable), spreading their free anger against something they are not understanding or considering, that is nevertheless much bigger than them and much bigger than anyone of us and that IT IS BEING PROVEN TO BE TRUE.
2 - I will separate myself from it and will ignore and not respond to violence at all, I will respect "my word" given to Ken. I will then keep walking my path as I have always done and will bring clear thoughts out of those willing to think with me through their contributions, and they will probably do the same with the thoughts of all constructive people in this thread including me. By the way, constructive and thoughtful people in this thread are, so far, many more than those in denial.
3 – Both statements mentioned above about riots and international war are going to become realities little by little, and I will say: “Hey, was it true or pure “imagination” what I said, because it has become factual, right?” And those who were in denial and wrote many times against this realities will keep totally SILENT, as they did every time this thread was right about anything, and will wait until the next round, when I will say yet more things that will most probably become realites too. The story is going to repeat itself and truth will prevail against any likes or dislikes, as this is stronger than any of our convictions.
4 – I will always know that I have been sincere, and you will discover finally that what it lies deep down behind it all is true love and concern for my fellow human beings. I detest seeing all this suffering happening. And it is ridiculous to condemn anyone for been concerned about his own race... Those who decided to contribute will feel happy and will have taken the advantage of a deeper understanding to face up life and these hard events that await us all, preparing ourselves psychologically to endure all this FACTS. Those who were against will feel naturally sad realizing how wrong they were after all, having lost the opportunity to become better human beings facing up life and the public consciousness of the Z, which is, by far, really by far, what MOST concern them...
5 – I will keep repeating over and over again that: nobody is forced to be here in anyway, and that I strongly recommend those not liking this thread not to participate on it, as simple as that.
Finally, I will always defend the natural right of being free to think in any way I want. Nobody has any authority whatsoever to stop me thinking or to stop anyone else thinking the way they want, as long as we do it with due respect and care, freedom is a natural right. All on the contrary, the more anyone tries to distort my real intentions in this thread or tries to stop me thinking, the more it represses my thoughts or my convictions for free and without arguments or contributions, the more it will strengthen me… from here to infinity!
It is time to say thank you for your help! Please keep giving me more and more power, as this makes me stronger and stronger in my convictions and quite frankly, it deepens my understanding of our human nature.
By the way, I opened this thread because I wanted to talk about these matters with a few friends here in the Z nothing more than that, but you achieved at making this thread very successful!
Time will tell…
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
- Nestor
- Posts: 6684
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Fourth Dimension Paradise, Cloud Nine!
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
We have heard a lot been said about this next 21th of December 2012, and as there are so many lunatics out there that enjoy taking advantage of people’s minds, fears and money, they have spread the idea of “the end of the world”, which is a ridiculous fantasy in itself based in scientific studies that demonstrates clearly that there is nothing proven to provoke such a bold “end”. Nevertheless, what it is true is that there will be a total reset of energies in our solar system because of an unusual constellation that will change the energies and its flow, and that these changes could eventually provoke strange phenomena and some large scale disasters as earthquakes, but definitely not the end of the world. In the other hand and at the extreme opposed side, we have those who believe we are going to get into a magnificent new era of goodness and that we all are going to become, just like this by magic, wonderful human beings, which is a dream of even lesser credibility.
One of the time periods of the Long Count of the Maya is the Baktun, which lasts 144,000 days. In some texts of the Maya a new period of the Long Count is said to begin after 13 Baktuns, 1,872,000 days. Such a new period in the Long Count of the Maya starts roughly on 21th December 2012, a few hours before or a few hours after, when the Long Count returns to “0.0.0.0.0” What is surprising is to find out that the precession of the equinoxes is “equal” in time to the 65 Baktuns of the Maya, so they seem to be referring to this cosmic happening exactly, which is amazing already.
What we can say it is true:
The Mayan Society had an astronomical knowledge that was, well…, astronomical, they have proven to have a sophisticated and vast understanding of time and cycles like no other civilization ever, not even our modern 21th century civilization, not to mention architecture. There will be a special astronomical conjunction that repeats itself every certain number of millennia. The 21th of December corresponds to the round date “0.0.0.0.0” in the long count of the Maya calendar. The Maya had the knowledge to predict that special conjunction precisely and accurately to one day, which is the 21th of December in that occasion.
False predictions:
The problem is that from a few years ago many people have started to study all these inscriptions and building up their own understanding of them they started to make up stories about what the Maya wanted to say, but they do not have the knowledge to read the signs properly as they are related to many other background knowledge too, so what they have interpreted comes from their imagination alone. Unfortunately they have become, to the world, the interpreters and writers of the prophecies that the Maya have never written or predicted at all. They say that the world will end in December 2012 by their own deductions but they have not a single serious theory to affirm it. What they should be concerned about, nevertheless, is that the Mayan Elders all around the world are very angry and annoyed by all these books and false interpretations. The Mayan Elders have the original calendars themselves and the original knowledge so they know how to truthfully interpret them.
The conclusion and objective situation coming from the real knowledgeable ones is: The world will not end, but it will be largely transformed. Part of this transformation will bring up nevertheless some large scale natural catastrophes and our climate will change as a consequence of this.
One of the time periods of the Long Count of the Maya is the Baktun, which lasts 144,000 days. In some texts of the Maya a new period of the Long Count is said to begin after 13 Baktuns, 1,872,000 days. Such a new period in the Long Count of the Maya starts roughly on 21th December 2012, a few hours before or a few hours after, when the Long Count returns to “0.0.0.0.0” What is surprising is to find out that the precession of the equinoxes is “equal” in time to the 65 Baktuns of the Maya, so they seem to be referring to this cosmic happening exactly, which is amazing already.
What we can say it is true:
The Mayan Society had an astronomical knowledge that was, well…, astronomical, they have proven to have a sophisticated and vast understanding of time and cycles like no other civilization ever, not even our modern 21th century civilization, not to mention architecture. There will be a special astronomical conjunction that repeats itself every certain number of millennia. The 21th of December corresponds to the round date “0.0.0.0.0” in the long count of the Maya calendar. The Maya had the knowledge to predict that special conjunction precisely and accurately to one day, which is the 21th of December in that occasion.
False predictions:
The problem is that from a few years ago many people have started to study all these inscriptions and building up their own understanding of them they started to make up stories about what the Maya wanted to say, but they do not have the knowledge to read the signs properly as they are related to many other background knowledge too, so what they have interpreted comes from their imagination alone. Unfortunately they have become, to the world, the interpreters and writers of the prophecies that the Maya have never written or predicted at all. They say that the world will end in December 2012 by their own deductions but they have not a single serious theory to affirm it. What they should be concerned about, nevertheless, is that the Mayan Elders all around the world are very angry and annoyed by all these books and false interpretations. The Mayan Elders have the original calendars themselves and the original knowledge so they know how to truthfully interpret them.
The conclusion and objective situation coming from the real knowledgeable ones is: The world will not end, but it will be largely transformed. Part of this transformation will bring up nevertheless some large scale natural catastrophes and our climate will change as a consequence of this.
*MUSIC* The most Powerful Language in the world! *INDEED*
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
couldn't you have started a new thread for this different subject?
There was not one reply to your last dramatic and obsessive post of almost two weeks ago, even not by me.
So it looks like most of us would prefer to let the thread fade out in a natural way.
Is the subject of '21 december 2012' the Trojan Horse to proceed the thread after the deadly silence of last 2 weeks?

@Planetz: hope the recent silence will continue. I'll cooperate if it makes sense.
There was not one reply to your last dramatic and obsessive post of almost two weeks ago, even not by me.
So it looks like most of us would prefer to let the thread fade out in a natural way.
Is the subject of '21 december 2012' the Trojan Horse to proceed the thread after the deadly silence of last 2 weeks?
Making doom prophecies again? OMGNestor wrote: The conclusion and objective situation coming from the real knowledgeable ones is: The world will not end, but it will be largely transformed.

@Planetz: hope the recent silence will continue. I'll cooperate if it makes sense.
Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
the Maya were certainly advanced, especially in demon worship and blood letting(but not anything even near the level of the Aztecs or the Dutch in Africa). they can kiss my butt.
the world is constantly transformed and not always in a good way. i'll withhold judgement until i see the results...
there is certainly a big push from the powers that be(the money behind the media frenzy) to get everyone in the mindset that a cleansing disaster is linked to the Mayan calendar. i'm ignoring it.
the world is constantly transformed and not always in a good way. i'll withhold judgement until i see the results...
there is certainly a big push from the powers that be(the money behind the media frenzy) to get everyone in the mindset that a cleansing disaster is linked to the Mayan calendar. i'm ignoring it.
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Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
Gary, you are making the same mistake you did with the Incas, you base your judgment is some vague information coming from a bunch of anthropologists that stated their own conceptions of the Maya and their civilization, only based on their own particular vision coming from “our present times and views”, but certainly not from the past. Anthropology has affirmed many, many things they have never witnessed, that is why we see because of that, that those dogmatic treatises on anthropology have to be rewritten all the time, as there is always new, more accurate information that make their affirmations to vanish. The Maya were not a bloodthirsty community but a marvelous civilization one million times more advanced than ours, especially in terms of “sound people”, and I know what I am talking about as I have studied this matters myself with much interest. I will tell here exactly the same thing I said about the Incas in regard to the Maya: what these anthropologists have written in their “incomplete” books happened at the end of their civilization but not throughout. All ancient civilizations started well and worked out for a given amount of time and then started to degenerate, this is a natural law that affects everything. With Egypt it happened exactly the same, yet their knowledge remains unsurpassed by even our most advanced standards. We cannot base ourselves in this sort of Mel Gibson reading of the Mayan people because it is an unfair false conception. If you get to know their legacy, you will understand that it is impossible to match such amazing knowledge with such a degrading description, it makes no sense. Modern anthropology made the mistake to base their statements in an unconnected background knowledge, they will never show you the whole picture, they don’t have how.
Anyway, if you really believe they were bloodthirsty, you should not ask for them to kiss your butt, they may bite it
No, seriously, you need to better analyze this concept, it is a false one.
Anyway, if you really believe they were bloodthirsty, you should not ask for them to kiss your butt, they may bite it

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Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
yes, i know. that fact that blood makes the universe go forward should be ignored because the sacrifices were sacred.
all kingdoms everywhere on the earth are basically the same, they are all based on blood(even in europe). the king is the sun god or his representitive. the sun god or main god is a dragon that flies through the air and lives in the sea(Merovingian, Arthur PenDragon, count Dracula, Chrysanthemum throne, Damballah, Kukulkan). Nimrod himself started this.
Mayan people are lovely. it's their leaders that are suspect, just like everyone else. i don't really care how advanced they were in the "secret knowledge", what they knew or manipulated to build their monuments. i'm tired of this death wish.
all kingdoms everywhere on the earth are basically the same, they are all based on blood(even in europe). the king is the sun god or his representitive. the sun god or main god is a dragon that flies through the air and lives in the sea(Merovingian, Arthur PenDragon, count Dracula, Chrysanthemum throne, Damballah, Kukulkan). Nimrod himself started this.
Mayan people are lovely. it's their leaders that are suspect, just like everyone else. i don't really care how advanced they were in the "secret knowledge", what they knew or manipulated to build their monuments. i'm tired of this death wish.
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Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
BTW, time is already telling, riots has increaced enormously in Egypt:
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/inte ... index.html
And also weapons have been sent by both sides to Syria, as the conflict escalates even farther to a wider war.
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/inte ... index.html
And also weapons have been sent by both sides to Syria, as the conflict escalates even farther to a wider war.
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Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
one other thought on Mel Gibson and Apocolypto, is that the movie never claimed to be an exact recreation of any period of Mayan reality. rather it was a pastiche that can be compared to Conan the Barbarian in the story of European history. the movie was about the goodness of the people and their tribal life together as a part of the forest where they lived, compared to the decadence of the city. as a morality tale or allegory, it was actually a good movie and very respectful to the Mayan peoples. it was the beginning of the civilisation mixed with the end, wildly historically inaccurate(just like Conan). i would never base my opinion on that type of story.
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Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
No no no, and no…, you are not understanding me my friend, what I am saying is that in ancient times, very ancient times indeed, not even dreamed by our anthropology and its fast deductions, the Mayan were in total peace, ALL OF THEM, including the most humble and the most powerful of them.garyb wrote:yes, i know. that fact that blood makes the universe go forward should be ignored because the sacrifices were sacred.
Their understanding of live would have never allowed them any blood sacrifice or perversion of the like. They were a peaceful group of people with a balanced live, among them and with nature too, there were not wars, fights, repression, etc., nothing of that, and their masters were the wisest people on earth and peace lasted for many thousands of years.
One of the common mistakes of modern anthropology is to believe that the Maya were formed just around the corner in time, and they are wrong about this. They come from tens and tens of thousands of years before they believe their civilization started.
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Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
I know, it’s just a reference because it makes sense here, as this is what the collective unconscious believes about the Maya, precisely because of these kind of ideas related with blood. His movie comes from this misconception of the Mayan people being wild, which is true "only" for their last period of existence, which amounts to only a few hundred of years, which is nothing compared to their whole time of existence.garyb wrote: Mel Gibson and Apocolypto, i would never base my opinion on that type of story.
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Re: The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...
yes, and Atlantis was ruled by just, altruistic peoples, too. well, now we might as well start talking about Madam Blavatski's "fifth root race"....
there has not been a city built in stone anywhere on this earth, where the buildings were not supported with blood. that includes, London, New York, Amsterdam, Berlin, Memphis, Barcelona, Lagos, Chichen Itza, Mexico City, etc, etc, etc.
please, let's not romanticize. the Maya have many things to be proud of, many beautiful wonderful things, and yes, the civilization is very old. let's not make them any better than anyone else, though. they are people, and all people have both good and evil tendencies.
there has not been a city built in stone anywhere on this earth, where the buildings were not supported with blood. that includes, London, New York, Amsterdam, Berlin, Memphis, Barcelona, Lagos, Chichen Itza, Mexico City, etc, etc, etc.
please, let's not romanticize. the Maya have many things to be proud of, many beautiful wonderful things, and yes, the civilization is very old. let's not make them any better than anyone else, though. they are people, and all people have both good and evil tendencies.