The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...

[garyb]

thank you for reminding yourself.

[hubird]

Of course the evolution as we know it does exist.
No reason to shit on Darwin.
If you say 'nothing ever happens', then that's on a different (philosophical) level.
It's rethoric to bullshit him only because you start from a different philosophical level.
Denying the evolution only favors the 6 day creationists.
In science no one denies the evolution.
Guess Eana has right to call those who do deterministic.
It's the same with some conspiracy theories: no development, no political escape, very deterministic.

[Eanna]

> dimension means a measurement of spatial extent. if time is a dimension, it is a measurement of space by definition, irrevocably.
Dimensions aren't just a measurement of spatial extent! That alone is probably where your argument falls down.

> memory is not time
No, I said memory is our sense-organ for time, I was not equating it to time.

> time is the line that runs along the z axis
The z axis is the third dimension in space - depth, if you wish... x, y, z - three variables, width, height, depth.
Time's usual letter assignation is t.

> everytrhing is in place and complete and connected from beginning to end, from things that have been to all possibilities in the future. everything is connected whole and already here
Yep, that's one theory. Determinism is the philosophical label on this.

> all that happens is that your conciousness moves from one point to the next ika movie, but more complete and connected
If we are bystanders observing the separation of events occurring thru time, then we are only more complete and connected because we have more senses at work than the sight-sound mix of a movie. Or were you thinking we were more connected because we participate and can shape those events?

> you think things happen, and since you have your will, you havbe choices between possibilities, so it's interesting.
If you do accept we have our own free will, then that surely contradicts your determinist stance. You're creeping into the murky ill-defined realm of existentialism!
What is 'will' if it isn't 'free'? Obviously, we are constrained in our will - I cannot choose to be a frog or a tiger or a tree or a stone - but logically, there is no contradiction with respect to constraints in will and that will being free.
It's like infinite subsets - the set of counting numbers N:{1, 2, 3, ..} is infinite. And the set of Integers Z:{..., -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, ...} is infinite. But N is a subset of Z, but its still infinite!
There's even a relative size of infinity! The number of Irrational numbers (non-repeating decimals) between 1 and 2 is a 'bigger' infinite set than the set Rational numbers (repeating decimals, expressed as a/b) - it's more densely populated. Some nice little mind games with this stuff..
What I'm proposing here is that I do, at any one moment, have an infinity of choices that are realistically available to me, but that infinite set of possible actions is smaller than / a subset of the infinity of universal potential events.

Time is one of those funny ones. We experience the smooth passage of time, but we conceptualise that quantity as discrete packets. It's the whole "analog v digital" debate.. Our auditory system is satisfied with a sample rate of 48kHz (or 96kHz or whatever), but that sample is a discrete packet covering the passage of time, and, unfortunately for our brains that can only conceptualise finite quantities, an infinite number of discrete events in that time. Our visual system is happy with a sample rate of a mere 25Hz...

My point here is the determinism upon which much of your argument rests is incompatible with free will. It's more than "interesting": it isn't possible to reconcile it with "we are disjointed bystanders".

But, I generally agree that this position of free will is difficult - it suggests that life, consciousness, and its associated free will, can somehow independently shape events in the universe that otherwise would plod on its merry deterministic way. However, I don't believe that life is a more elevated existence. So, there must be an element of randomness in nature - which I guess is where quantum physics comes in.

> there is no evolution, only what is, has been and what will be, all whole and complete. sorry, it's just how it is.
By this definition, it's not just evolution that fails to exist / can be falsified, it's pretty much everything - all of physics, your three or four dimensions, mathematics' 11 or 50 dimensions, the present of all things physical, life and all its heady connotations, ...

The argument you put forward is not a disproof of evolution. Nor does it approach a scientific description of things. It's a philosophical position approaching nihilism - which came up a few pages back if I recall.

It's a refreshing debate, but your position is one to which I don't subscribe... That's cool!
No need to apolgise that this is your belief!

> of course, i'm just going by the definitions of the words and what people say...
"people" - unfortunately, it's a just a group of 'theoretical philosophers' that believe that! By its nature, it cannot be proven. It's unfalsifiable!


> within the proper parameters, we can measure tabletops pretty accurately
Those parameters must include contextual information. If we had never seen a tabletop before, we may not recognise the tabletop as being something that's rarely more than say 25 foot square. And without the (apparent) physical placement of other known objects around that tabletop - chairs, cups and the like - and our ability to move in that space, employing parallax and stereoscopic vision, we would not have a sense of scale. So, we as humans cannot measure tabletops accurately - we learn how to give a good guess.

> String theory...
Aaaah, the old unified theory. A noble pursuit! Scale here is significant - at what level does scale break down? We have particle accelerators and mass spectrographs and large hadron colliders and the Higgs Boson, but one Higgs Boson particle surely must ask what it itself is made of? Or, is it the case that we end up in pure maths with String/Superstring Theory, and have gotten to the root of the existence of things, time, etc..? I'm sure Kurt Goedel would have something to say about Maths being the final arbiter of existence! His incompleteness theorem kinda screws that up...

> do you know why you get to wear that square thing on your head when you graduate from university?
Point of useless information: in Ireland, its only the ladies who graduate from university that wear the mortarboard hats...


And stardust:
> string theory in physics is not the only theory discussed here that has no practical impact. Though string theory at least tries to get practical for cosmology and particle physicists.
This is a popular belief for all new sciences. If it were not for good science, good theories, there would be no progress. We'd still be in the Dark Ages, left to struggle with teaching of Aristotelian Physics (what a woeful step backwards that was! When we had such visionaries as Democritus describing Atoms before Aristotle, and Aristotle's teaching later being hijacked by Christianity). No. Galileo did his best to debunk one aspect of Aristotle's Natural Philosophy, which paved the way for Newtonian physics, which resulted in thinking that culminated in Einsteinian physics, and beyond...
Practical impacts of these initially-theoretical-only theories? Well, Einsteinian physics brought a speedy end to World War Two in the east, and Newtonian physics got us to the moon. That, and it got us Scope and Xite, and the plane that delivered my two Scope cards from Italy!

String Theory may allow us solve real problems, like energy requirements, reversal of processes, programmable analog, faster DSPs, who knows?
I'm just humbled that the United States continues to fund research into it in such a significant way, and that the electorate is OK with that.

When things get smaller, they get harder to measure, and become more costly to measure since we cannot scale ourselves down and must find new ways of detection beyond magnification... But that doesn't mean that these are no less practical - in fact, they are probably far more powerful! Thinking of H-bombs, for example...


Cheers lads, Eanna

[Eanna]

Excuse that long post lads. It's very long.....

> No reason to shit on Darwin.
I'd say there's no reason to shit on evolution because you don't like Mr. Darwin.

[hubird]

yes, that's even better.

[Eanna]

> In science no one denies the evolution.
> Guess Eana has right to call those who do deterministic.
The determinism is for those who believe that nothing happens cause it's already happened, it's all connected etc. etc.
My point is that determinism doesn't just falsify the theory of evolution - if it breaks any theory, it breaks pretty much every theory. So, it's not a valid argument to use determinism as a mechanism to falsify evolution, specifically.

[Nestor]

Cool conversation guys. Darwin never said by himself that evolution was the way it is explained in universities today. What I know that he said now and then to his closed friends was this: “Sometimes I feel a cold wave raising my spine when I think that the theory of evolution could be a complete mistake of ours”. Darwin suggested the theory of “evolution”, but did not create the law himself. The speculative law of evolution was created by his followers.

The law of evolution, as Gary said, has become a religion. I understand very well what he is talking about I think. I know dozens of new age organizations based on the idea that TIME can make human beings better, that time can bring mankind to perfection, well…, time is going by and things are getting worst. The theory is as ridiculous as trying to learn to play bass staring at the instrument and waiting for a magical something to happen so you suddenly become a proficient player. If you want progress, there is a low in nature that determines it, and it is called “sacrifice”. Without sacrifice there is no possible progress in human terms. Nature gives you a wonderful body, unbelievable, marvelous, but when we come to talk about the psychology of a person and its spiritual workings it is up to this particular person what to do with himself. Facts are facts, and life shows us that there are criminals and saints, and both have been given the same possibilities at the start. Science does not take much into account that every person and every being alive is a trilogy of: 1-body, 2-mind and 3-spirit, except some very advanced scientists that today are breaking all this sclerosis-paradigms that tend to crystallize our minds into a stone.

I don’t have a direct rejection to science either, it is a marvelous thing, but I am in trouble with some groups of scientists playing being the supreme beings of the universe, destroying nature, creating mass destruction weapons and medicines that help you 50% and kill you 50% in the other side. When science respects nature, everything is perfect, but most scientists for a start, do not get involved in the laws of nature that are above the ground, above what has been described as matter, which is a concept that, by the way, is no longer acceptable because matter does not exist, there is only energy, that is what all really is, “energy”.

All these new age groups waiting for perfection makes me a little sad, because I know they will not achieve anything important in terms of psychological and spiritual achievements, they simply are into and endless dream of peace and love that will bring them to death without having understood themselves, or the meaning of their own lives. That reminds me John Lennon, dreaming in a bed about changing the world but doing actually nothing for the suffering of people. Move your ass and help the world in a pragmatic way man!

Whoever studies in depth Darwin writings and thoughts, particularly those in relation with the false law of evolution, can evidence that it is a laughable invention. The first enormous and incredible mistake of Darwin is talking ONLY about evolution, totally forgetting its brother law, forgetting the other half of the wheel or side of the coin, “involution”. How could he have made such a mistake? How is that possible that this simple discovery took so many years to be thought about? It is unbelievable! That demonstrates something important to me, and that is that scientists do not have all the answers in life, and that basing our lives in science to understand it, it is been lame, we need all the other approaches too. What I don’t like about the world of science is the worship that there exists when you say “it is scientifically proven”, statement that is in many times incomplete, and, or, boolshit altogether, or even extremely dangerous, bring you to take a pill that will destroy your health because it says “it is scientifically proven”, like some conception pills that killed thousands of babies and women. I quite frankly, do not need for science to prove me something for it to exist, I deny, absolutely, the intermediate people, institutions or believe between the experiences I have and myself, as well as the interpretation that others want to insert in my mind for free, be it religiously or scientifically speaking. For instance, I don’t need, AT ALL, for science to tell me if there is life after death, I have already experienced what I needed to experience to know, first hand, and without any intermediate theory (which is not experience), that indeed, life after death is a fact. When you know something for yourself, you don’t longer need “opinions”, and most important, you don’t longer need to believe, YOU KNOW. Opinions are, in fact, in most cases, the foundation of speculation and speculation the foundation of ignorance or wrong interpretation of reality, which equates to the exact same thing. It is impossible to replace EXPERIENCE, the richest, most precious and direct way to get to know about anything. I consider believe the foundation of ignorance, in this way: if you believe, you are in the positive pole of ignorance, if you don’t believe, you are in the pole negative of ignorance, the problem so is that believing is ignoring either ways, denying or accepting. Of course, you may think that there are many realms of life that cannot be experienced, if someone does not tell you about, you will never know… Nop! Consciousness can bring to us any information about anything, it is not an easy process, but it is possible.

In fact, to try to bring together the universe through material laws, to try to explain the universe through theories or asserting that things are in a particular way and only this way it is closing the doors of reality, because the universe will never be totally known, understood nor discovered in a material way, it will never be explored in such a way that we could simply write down and publish in some books about all its mysteries… No way! We don’t know, probably, not even 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,1 % of the mysteries of the universe.

One prove of it is that the “Fourth Dimension” you are referring to, it has not only been proven, but many other dimensions not understood yet have been discovered too recently, which science is experimenting with but without understanding what they are for, because for the first time, (and that was about time to recognize this truth), official science has started to understand and recognize that there is a reason for everything created by nature, that everything servers a purpose and the equilibrium in a way or another, of the whole. Well…, something our remote ancestors have been telling us since time immemorial, particularly through the Vedas and Budhism Chan…, but now scientists makes this discoveries “their own”, “hey guys, it’s all new and we discovered it, amazing”…

What is really a revolution today is the all important discovery that the universe and all its parts are interconnected to each other, and that everything has a degree of self-consciousness, the concept is amazing and an enormous game changer conception of the universe! So matter, as we knew until the past century, has always been not only a wrong theory, but a far, far away outset of reality. Nevertheless, we still study things nonsense in schools and universities all around the world because it is too complicated and too expensive to revolutionize everything. And, of course, because the church is radically against anything that makes take away its power over the minds of what they consider “their” people, as if people could belong to an institution…

It is interesting to follow a little what is going on with the LHC, the biggest invention ever created in the history of science so far, and the most expensive scientific experiment in history too. More than 7.000 of the most advanced scientists of about 45 countries are working in this project, and they are amazed to discover that reality is far beyond imagination.

Way beyond the boundaries of importance this discoveries may have, is consciousness, in the past three years scientists related to this have gathered to talk exclusively about consciousness as a scientific process, and guess what… they are studying ancient traditions because what they have been criticizing for centuries as been “not scientific to be taken into consideration”, are now the closest ideas of what is in fact, the most advanced of sciences. I like that! Thank you Quantum Physics!

[Nestor]

Eanna, thank you and congratulations for being an example of how to contradict others having fun, talking to each other, and being a sound member of this thread. You are a good example of what some people should also do.

[Eanna]

Thanks Nestor!

[Nestor]

Now let contradict me you super Irelander that comes from the nation who kicked the bastard Brits out of the magical land !

[hubird]

never seen so much bla bla together

[Nestor]

Riots now too in Indonesia and Argentina.

[garyb]

a last post on the nature of reality for a minute....

all possibilities are also already and always in existence. this is something that will never fit into a name, philosophy or other construct. human beings are not capable of grasping the whole. that does not negate reality, however. that also doesn't make evolution real, even if evolution is useful. what is a theory? by definition it is "an educated guess". a theory doesn't even need to be true, if it is useful.

all science does NOT confirm evolution. physics in fact, ultimately denies it.

shit on evolution? does this harm you?

there is something a farmer told me. "don't argue with a pig. it's a waste of time, and it upsets the pig."
fortunately, we are all humans, not pigs....

please don't deny reality. reality is that in the present time, there are plans from the UN itself to depopulate by 80%. there is tremendous profit from war, for the high born and highly connected, more than peace and by profit. i'm not just talking about money. otherwise, things and countries would be nicer.

[Nestor]

a last post on the nature of reality for a minute....

there is something a farmer told me. "don't argue with a pig. it's a waste of time, and it upsets the pig."

Very funny tell...

[Eanna]

Normal service resumed folks!
Please return to your seats, the interlude is over!

[Nestor]

Yes, the interlude is over, let us get back on topic: a grandmother felt down in front of my door I’m sure that the illuminati did it to her, they hide behind a tree to do it feekit

[Nestor]

This recent presidential election has created a revolution of opinions all around the globe, because of the economic crisis that it represents by itself the continuation of the former 44th president. Here is the “affectionate” answer of Ted Nugent to his own people:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... z2Bjn2lJXD

[kensuguro]

I'm not sure I get what this thread is about.. I mean, detours and all. Is it just to catalog all manifestations of negativity in the world? I get the illuminati and all that.. just seems rather pointless to dwell on it for such a long time. As for me, I would tend to spend more time thinking about ways to improve myself, to become open for inspiration and also inspire others to become more happy, loving, sharing, compassionate. There are physical manifestations of negative emotions and thought, as organizations, as humans, and even a part of a day for a great person if he's in a bad mood. Those are going to be there regardless, I think it's just a natural balance of the psyche.

The competition, or battle is not just a global thing. It happens in any group of people.. countries, states, municipalities, families, friends, and even within yourself. Of course, not all battles are against the elites are illuminatis, but you can start with yourself, and work outwards. Make peace, and spread the ring outward. You might not defeat the elites, or they may not be defeated for eternity. But for just one more person who is happy, who is compelled to make others happy, it is worth it. The big picture is not the only picture. Every success is a victory.

It also seems like you're anticipating some sort of climax to all this. Perhaps there is. But I doubt it will be an end. It goes up and down, sometimes higher, sometimes lower, but for me, as a day to day sort of thing, it really doesn't change my efforts to give where I can, share what I can, create opportunities for people, empower people to make others around them happy as well. Not that I have a messiah complex, I just think that's the way everyone ought to be.

Of course, being educated is a good thing. But let's just make sure this thread doesn't become itself a source of division and friction. It's probably what this thread was meant to oppose, in the first place.

[Nestor]

I understand and second your thoughts in a general way Ken, particularly those in regard to helping others and looking for inner growth. Nevertheless, as you say, all relationships have this duality inherent to themselves, even within ourselves, so it is something expected to have divisions in a topic like this one, which goes to the very meaning of life and how we understand it.

The divisions that had occurred between a few of the members in this thread where already in existence in a potential way, the thread has only unleashed this differences among us that existed already exactly as shown here, and this is due to some deep and opposite understandings about life. This little “daring attitude” for me, is being something I needed to do honestly, and the way I am writing in this forum is certainly having some positive psychological repercussions in the way I behave in my daily life, too.

I find very interesting talking about all this topics just like that, with interesting people that have great points of view and that really open my mind once and over again, and that are musicians, which makes a particular difference as I would not have this talks with businessmen like people for instance. I tend to take and use things intensely in my personal life, I mean, this thread is not just wringing and reading like crazy, I really pay attention and reflect what people say and that makes me get to wiser conclusions and understanding of life, people, nations and the state of things in the world, to name a few aspects of what you can learn here. Your last words here, for instance, are very meaningful so I will read them several times because they have a sincere and positive “substance”, so don’t think that this is worthless, at least, it is not for me.

In the other hand, confrontation brings opportunity. If you are always in a peaceful surrounding, you will never grow, it is much more comfortable and easy but you will not grow inwardly. When Budha was living in the luxurious palace of his father he was in a state of whole peace and had a really rich life full of goods and servants that would take care of him in detail. Nevertheless, his father did not allow him out of the palace, and had trained the guards to not let Siddhartha out of it. He was told that outside everything was exactly the same than it was inside, but it was false… Once Siddhartha became a young man, he felt that this peaceful state was something that could not last forever and that it was, in a way, hiding something behind: the truth he felt in his heart… So he decided to escape the palace against the will of his father and got to know the real world, and the real world was full of pain, illness and death. But it was this “difficult” world the one that pulled him to know himself and brake the boundaries of his own attachments and conditionings. It is “resistance” what gives you muscles when you exercise, the harder the exercise, the more your muscles grow. If life has no resistance, there is no personal development in maturity, which is a never-ending path, as we are never mature enough. Behind this little story there is a beautiful teaching about how facing life that I like to consider and relate to this thread.

I don’t want for us to see only the negative side of things, no…, I don’t want that. I want to tell you that my attitude changed over the time in this thread because instate of speaking, some started to attack personally in a silly way. I was not used to defend myself or going against through arguments, so I decided to learn and not going away, but stand and be myself regardless of the differences.

There is also the time factor here, which is very decisive in terms of what this thread talks about. Time will determine the outcome, the veracity or the illusion of this thread. I hope you understood my reasons an explanation.

You say: “Of course, being educated is a good thing. But let's just make sure this thread doesn't become itself a source of division and friction”. I agree and take your words for me, and would like humbly to ask all the other members to do the same.

And let time speak

[garyb]

talking about illuminati?

that's what some want to degenerate the conversation into. basically, Nestor started this thread because of his fears that the powers that be are gearing up for another war. he posts things that look bad to him and some say, "i see what you mean", some say "i don't think that's quite what you think it is" and some just go crazy over the whole idea about talking about such things.