more workstation synths

[kensuguro]

http://www.korg.com/KronosX

I'm sort of losing track of the newer generation workstation synths.. Do people still use workstation synths? It seems like they're becoming more and more embedded computers with SSD and multitrack recording, etc.. What's worse than owning hardware that's completely tethered to the software? I guess there will always be non computer savvy musicians, but wait.. these workstations are essentially computers. Multitrack recording with effects and software running on the synth? C'mon, really? Though you do get DSP effects instead of native, that's kind of nice.

Dunno, I look at these and remember the Triton behemoth and it all seems so 90's to me.

[jksuperstar]

No OS issues, no network virus, no upgrade path to worry about: there's a lot to admire, even if they seem to mimic the big DAWs on a seemingly handicapped level.

[Bud Weiser]

http://www.korg.com/KronosX

Do people still use workstation synths?

Yes,- because these are live gigging/touring workhorses offering 16-part MIDI multimode and incredible MIDI controller abilities (if you buy the right one !).
There´s also the polyphony these offer and being essential for gigging/touring.
In addition, you´r efree to use ´em as MIDI contrller axe in your studio/DAW environment.

It seems like they're becoming more and more embedded computers with SSD and multitrack recording, etc.. What's worse than owning hardware that's completely tethered to the software? ... these workstations are essentially computers. Multitrack recording with effects and software running on the synth?

It´s not the same than buying/building a computer for DAW.
These machines, especially the Kronos, surprises w/ a s**tload of ROMpler and synth engines, insert and aux FX,- all running from a tiny Intel "industry spec" mobo, running Intel Atom 1.6GHz dual core, 2-4GB DDR2 RAM, a 2GB doom drive and Linux/Wine,- incl. all it´s MIDI controller based hardware knobs, switches and sliders as well as the touch screen based GUI.
Try to do this w/ a DIY PC build using Intel Atom ...

The SSD is ONLY for the sample libraries on the Kronos.

When it was introduced, I was very sceptical about reliabilty,- but it seems it IS reliable technology and became a tour standard now, same as Yamaha Motifs / Motif racks, Kurzweil PC3(K) and some Roland keyboards.
There are also the NORDs, but these don´t fall in the workstation category.

And yes, you can record audio and MIDI w/ these toys,- but I believe the main goal on this is backing tracks operatable by the keyboard player using just only 1 unit/piece of gear.

Dunno, I look at these and remember the Triton behemoth and it all seems so 90's to me.

Yes, it is.
It´s because there are enough keyboardplayers out there needing such gear, touring like in the 80s and 90s which were the big money making times,- at least for me.

When I had a tour like in the 80s/90s, making up to 2 grand per concert day and the half for rehearsal and off days,- all plus VAT and plus per diems,- I´d buy a Kronos X 88 in a minute and for 4 grand.

But because I don´t have that anymore,- I passed when Kronos came out and buyed a XITE-1 which is the better unit for my home studio and will find it´s place in a tour rig too when necessary.

B.t.w., not only workstation keyboards use that technology,- Crumar Mojo organ does too as well as Hamichord does.
The difference is, they don´t use Linux/Wine but Windows embedded.
Crumar Mojo seems to be extremely stable as well, there are no complains on latency and/or audio artefacts elsewhere.

It would be a dream if there would be a small 1HU Windows embedded PC w/ a similar mini-mobo running SCOPE (6) from doom drive and the Windows embedded being optimized for SCOPE/XITE only,- then connect XITE-1, Ferrofish A16mkII, network switch and Alyseum MIDI hardware,- and fly.

Maybe we see faster Intel Atoms on these little mobos next future making that possible.

Bud

[kensuguro]

Well, I can understand gigging. And these workstations come filled with newer synthesis engines that sound much better than before. But to me, that's more like just a synth, and doesn't really require the whole sequencing and groove tweaking, accompaniment generating, even multitrack audio recording bit, which seems like something the big boys have been wanting to massage into workstations since the Triton. But even still, it would seem like a downgrade to perform with direct sound from workstation since a 1u pc running vsti is not that hard to keep running reliably. (tho maybe failure probability is higher than say, a Motif)

So as a no brainer choice workstations's definitely more failsafe, but quality wise I think the 1u pc is still worth the trouble to set up right. (and scope) At the end of the day, I feel the MIDI controller aspect of a workstation outweighs its internal sounds... so you kind of have a very expensive MIDI controller on your hands.

[Bud Weiser]

But to me, that's more like just a synth, and doesn't really require the whole sequencing and groove tweaking, accompaniment generating, even multitrack audio recording bit, which seems like something the big boys have been wanting to massage into workstations since the Triton.

Well, the manufacturers try to sell the workstations to almost everyone, you know,- not only to the gigging musician.
Once, one of these flagships is out and 2nd generation like the Kronos X now, the derivate products come out soon like now there is the Korg Krome.

But even still, it would seem like a downgrade to perform with direct sound from workstation ...

I don´t think sound quality is bad on a Kronos or Krome.
KORG has experiences building soundcards too.

since a 1u pc running vsti is not that hard to keep running reliably. (tho maybe failure probability is higher than say, a Motif)

In Kronos there isn´t VST running that way it runs on a DAW build using a DAW host.
You cannot install any other VST plugins on a Kronos.

I feel the MIDI controller aspect of a workstation outweighs its internal sounds... so you kind of have a very expensive MIDI controller on your hands.

That´s why I buyed a KURZ PC361 as a blow out and buyed all the options as well,- like the ribbon controller and all the pedals.
It´s the most advanced MIDI controller engine you can buy actually and the PC3K is the same, but more expensive.
Take a older 88 weighted keys action and connect to PC361 MIDI In and your done having both worlds, 88 weighted keys for piano type stuff and a synth action you can fly on.
It works well w/ SCOPE/XITE and VST stuff,- and it offers some bread&butter sounds you won´t find in any SCOPE device for the time being.

Bud

[kensuguro]

In Kronos there isn´t VST running that way it runs on a DAW build using a DAW host.
You cannot install any other VST plugins on a Kronos.

ya, I think that's quite apparent.

I don´t think sound quality is bad on a Kronos or Krome.
KORG has experiences building soundcards too.

Well, it's might not sound bad. I'm just speaking from a purely code/mechanical perspective, knowing that synth x has y amount of rom, (I assume samples compressed quite a bit, and expanded at runtime so sample size > rom size), is tough to match the fidelity of say, Ivory or VSL not in terms of how each sample sounds, but in terms of layers, round robin, scripting, etc which has become somewhat expected by now and makes the gigabyte pianos/bases/guitars the behemoths they are. The VA part I think is easier to match since the code can be heavily optimized. Obviously the big boys have awesome engineers and have been at the VA thing for much longer than vst folks. Physmod I think is pretty similar whether you do it on the synth or DAW side since there's only a handful of methods to base it on.

The effects I'm not so sure about. A lot can go into creating effects and with the processor power on synths I'd assume a lot of corners of being cut, whereas a mammoth comp on a DAW can have so much component modeling it's like a research project. Traditionally tho, the expectations for onboard effects has not been too high imho, but more like a bang for the buck, quantity sort of thing. Maybe that's changing because the bar is so much higher compared to say, 5 years ago.

[dawman]

They do sound good and the DSP models have been around as long as Scope and even Korg Oasys PCI cards.
Korg seems like they used the Oasys 88 as long as it was selling, then dropped down to a more acceptable price range while maintaining most of the goodies.

My methods are the XITE-1 and a 1U i7 3770k with 32GBs of RAM.
Any failure live, I switch to the internal sounds of the Privia 88 controller, the SE-1X and Solaris.
The difference is my horns would suck buttcrack, and strings would be like a hardware sampler quality form the mid 90's.
Kronos is really an ideal rig no doubt, but I would be concerned about redundnacy, even though for 13 years I have never once had a Scope/GigaDAW crash, or XITE-1/Native crash.
Compliments of GaryB builds/tweaks.

It's just stage paranoia as I have seen guys crash and burn, and most musicians here have really pathetic looking butts, which unfortunately the audience must look at for 15-20 minutes while the poor band struggles to please the audience with weak jokes, or ask if anyone is from out of town,...of course they are you moron,.....it's Vegas...!!!!
You'd think they would just play on w/o the guy until he's done staring at his DAW, but most of us keyboard guys cover strings, back up Guitars, Horns, Keys, and the guys with any experience use both hands instead of this PBend (yawn/yawn) Jan Hammer stuff, or Kontakt players who claim they need their left hand to switch articulations............weak.

But Knonos is really years of experience, and for years I was not a fan of anything except the Hammond-ish CX-3, and the Wavestations, M1's...
But this unit seems really drenched with design and quality.

[kensuguro]

wha.. dude, you never told me Solaris was a backup. that's some heavy duty backup. Privia internal sounds would be pretty bumpy ride..

btw, it's interesting they dropped the brass and reed physmod. They sounded like crap back in Triton days like fart machines. I guess they just abandoned it? Or maybe a separate add on. And no more physmod bowed strings.. they really didn't sound like anything on planet earth and was kind of cool in that way.

[Bud Weiser]

My methods are the XITE-1 and a 1U i7 3770k with 32GBs of RAM.

Ehhmmm,- you got the 1HU unit materialized for live usage,- really ???
Would you please so kind sharing specs because the i7 3770K will be my next proc for a XITE machine ?

Bud

[dante]

My methods are the XITE-1 and a 1U i7 3770k with 32GBs of RAM.

Ehhmmm,- you got the 1HU unit materialized for live usage,- really ???
Would you please so kind sharing specs because the i7 3770K will be my next proc for a XITE machine ?
Bud

Yes, Id like to know bout this 1U as well...or even a pic or two and spec...

I saw what you wrote here, bout it being just for XITE-1 (which is expected) :

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31374

[dawman]

The Privias Electric Pianos and Grands are bearable, but the rest remind me of my Grandmas Organ, which was a Conn ( no pun intended ) that had Reed tabs, and Violin tabs, and I would push them down and just get more of a Buzzy sound than anything.

Believe it or not my camera got wet at Tahoe and ruined. My son was letting me use his phone but the pictures I used of Solaris were so low-fi I'll wait until I get a real camera again, but I am in deep Caca for spending too much money, and must live like a Spartan until my banishment ( no trim ) has been lifted.

But here's what works, and works really well.

P8Z77-V / i7 3770k
CORSAIR CMZ32GX3M4X1600C10(XMP) x 4
SUPERMICRO 1U 520w w/ 4 x removable SATA 3.5s w/ Icy Dock 2.5" cooler/converters
Dynatron K129 Passive Copper HS
Seagate 500GB SATA II Momentus Hybrid + 2 x Samsung 830 128GB SSDs
Windows worthless fucking Ultimate 7
PCI-e 1X Riser Ribbon and Plate
Stock speeds are plenty and 1600MHz RAM is plenty fast.
GPU on die has no hit on system resources, unlike the Clarksdale CPUs
Ran it w/ the XITE-1 for 5 days on a week off and never got hot, the X is actually hotter, but as soon as the voltage gets raised past 1.5v the heat comes out of nowhere and really requires a special 1U Active HSF which aren't available at this time, and really wouldn't help as the temps are just too hot IMHO.
I should have waited for the Haswell but this was 1250 total and works great.
Sometime in late September or October I will get laid again and get to keep my checks, then I have a long list of tax write offs, a Camera for100 USD from Cannon will be one.
Joel is coming to see me gig and hang, so maybe he has a Camera as most tourists think Bablyon has been rebuilt and stare at all of the 64 story towers....

[dawman]

And Ken....
Solaris is hooked up w/ Analog and Digital simultaneously.
The Barbettas have multiple I/Os, so I would lose the AES/EBU connection to the X, but switching from SoundBank 7 to Soundbank 6 is an exact copy of the presets, only difference is the output assignments. The Barbettas would be ready with the oush of a button.

SE-1X has a Y cable and only needs to be pushed all the way into the Barbettas, the Banks containg internal sounds on the Privia would be used instead of the controller only Banks.

Much cheaper than buying 2 of the X's or 2 x DAWs.....

[dante]

But here's what works, and works really well.

Thanks for the lowdown, I'll update page w/ this news.

[jhulk]

synths have been run by computers since the 70,s

all samplers were computers with specific code to run sampler software and hardware

so its nothing new thats why vsti is possible the first synth to use va synthesis was roland d50 in its pwm saw and pwm square waves are done by software

and the wavetable synths that use software for look up tables to read binary code to be converted into voltages was the ppg and the prophet vs

korg and yamaha was at the for front of thisv type of synthesis but back then they used 6800 and z80 and othe 8bit and 16 bit micro

but with asci specific made synth chips

to day they use pc and mac which is pc today for the software and hard ware with embedded os for the synthesis types

the advantages of this is pc parts are cheap and availability is massive

then its down to specific dsp coding of there synth params

[next to nothing]

I remember my first workstation synth!

l.jpg (17.97 KiB) Viewed 6403 times

C64 Music Maker.jpg (38.47 KiB) Viewed 6403 times

[jksuperstar]

Haha! I built an 8bit sampling "cartridge" for that workstation, and then an 8 pad drum trigger! All in 8 bits!

[dante]

Could be a good first project for you to do in SDK JK - physical model of a COmmodore incl your sampler addon

[jksuperstar]

Actually, the SID audio synth chip was a hot commodity for some time, it's what got elektron going before the machine drum and mono machine!

It would make for a great modular add on.

[valis]

I still wouldn't mind building a quadsid, but I have so much less use for it than I used to. And actually Plogue's little Chipsounds vsti blipstation thingy covers that territory now and so much more.