The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...

[Nestor]

here's something interesting while we're off topic, that is sorta on topic:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-se ... 2012-03-12

it seems that the US government has purchased 450 million rounds of .40 caliber hollow point ammo. this ammo is sufficient for 7 or more years of outright war, based on the 5.5 million rounds a month(for all calibers) used during hot periods of recent middle east conflicts. this type is illegal for warfare per the Geneva agreements, but it seems to be ok for the American populace. i'm not worried, of course. the people in charge of such things are always humanitarians and the president is even African American.

that sounds really bad... it is amazing the amount of money they spend in these kind of things, so many real problems could be solved with that... but...

[hubird]

it's not that simple and moralistic.

If you wanne ban munition/weapons you also need to find ways to ban the right for individuals to have weapons.
It's impossible to allow citizens to have weapons and not governments.
At least you need a strategy to find a way out of that dilemma then.

Thinking away 'government' is a not realistic option.
You need them to make a bridge to the future.
There are starting points already, like agreements to not selling weapons to certain regimes, and anti nuklear proliferation (and yes, not all governments' motives are pure in this context).

For a right view about this subject you need an historical view of at least hundred(s of) years, so I'm positive.
Since 70 years it's a subject at least, for the first time in history.

[garyb]

a government of, by, and for the people does not fear it's own population's arms.
a tyrant does.

citizens need weapons because the government has them. the last time i looked it was governments that wage war and develope the weapons for that purpose. i agree that a government is very helpful in keeping things organized. i'm not wildly against them, at least not at this point in time.

building up weapons to terrorize the populace is not new, not at all. there are 1000's of years of that type of history, fiction and non fiction.

by the way, i know some some very artistic and athletic "white" men and some asian men who are like that too. at least when Jimmy says bigoted things, he's funny. the reason i mention Obama's "blackness" was only in mokery of those who thought that Obama's regime would be "kinder and gentler" than Bush's version.

ehh, i'd rather be hopeful though. i really do hope that the people in general find a way to diffuse the overall meanness that is so popular today. with that, i feel like human beings can deal with the petty problems of life, and can avoid all the biggest problems in life like war, famine and uselessness. it is possible, it's just not likely right now.

[valis]

I don't think you can distill anything down to a singular cause like our minds would often like/prefer, but when discussing things like the military industrial complex & the police state it's worth remembering that a purchase order of that magnitude involves political pork barrel decisions, ie. someone's buddy somewhere landed the sales commission not to mention the bottom line for the company/companies involved in production. A parallel to this is statistics that show the US having a disproportionate % of the population pass through the incarceration system without including the fact that companies are valued on the stock market (wackenhut etc) based on this very metric.

[dawman]

What about that lackey for George Soros, Eric Holder....?
He couldn't even hold a gig as a public defender and he is the Attorney General, who by the way sent thousands of Guns including 50 caliber Barret rifles and armor piercing rounds to Mexico.

It's great though when the Mafia................sorry, I meant the Federal Government, has black faces in key positions.
When we go to the UN or NATO if they disagree with us, that's because they're racists.
I am still wating for the " Reverend " Jesse Jackson to go the Kremlin and demand more blacks be in their Parliament....

[Nestor]

The problem is that bullets kill, it doesn’t matter why or whom they kill, this is inhuman!

The bottom line of the problem for me it is not in weapons themselves, but in how we are and behave with them in our hands. If we were truly peaceful people, nobody would need a weapon except for having some fun in a contest. Now, I understand that if some crazy people come to my house with weapons in their hands, for me to be able to defend my wife and myself the only thing to stand to their power will be having yet more weapons myself, and that is the never ending story…

Anyway, I do believe that the police state that is being created in USA is not anything of a joke, everyday they construct yet another “fence” through a new law, through new restriction to the internet, phone calls, cars, etc. It is a serious matter and is taking place, everything coordinated with the moves toward war.

[garyb]

of course! the funny thing is, the USA is the trendsetter. European nations love to brag about their democratic ways, but it was only a couple of generations ago that Europe was full of dictatorships. now, they've copied the American model for the second time. when the USA is on complete lock-down, how much longer until the European leaders follow suit? we aready see signs of economic meltdown, it may not be long, especially since the EXACT same financial bailouts are happening and the EXACT same security laws are being passed as in the USA.

but hey, we've always been at war with Eastasia.

still, i really do have hope. as long as human beings still have their own lives and will, there's always the chance that things can be good in the long run.

[petal]

of course! the funny thing is, the USA is the trendsetter.

Like the bully in the playground?

[garyb]

like the first country to allow it's commoners to have representitive government...

the USA is the bully for the UN these days, so yes to that, too.

[dawman]

Anyway, I do believe that the police state that is being created in USA is not anything of a joke, everyday they construct yet another “fence” through a new law, through new restriction to the internet, phone calls, cars, etc. It is a serious matter and is taking place, everything coordinated with the moves toward war.

Yeah it's funny how they pretend there's this Liberal vrs. Conservative division that exists, but that's basically Sheep who believe the media and DC shell games.
You'll notice these 2 arch enemies have no trouble agreeing on anything that takes away more freedoms, and extends the Patriot Act.
Facisim is alive and well.
You can see it's fruits at the Treasury where they collect the revenues as the proceeds to shareholders were frozen.
Treasury owns the worlds largest insurnace brokeredge AIG, Ally Bank, GM, the housing market is next by taking over Fannie and Freddie, so the Fuhrer would be pleased....

I'm tired of working hard and being free, I want a strong central Government to buy my hardware, feed me, provide health care. Then I won't mind them killing millions more in the Middle East, Central Asia, or even the Canadians for beating me up as a kid during Hockey camps.

[hubird]

About half of all Americans will vote for more 'social justice' in the political system.
Mind you, these people don't wanne kill other people, are not planning to start goons, don't hate Latinos Jews or blacks and don't destroy them shops, or treaten and kill journalists.
They just make political choices in a normal field of the political spectrum.
They just are using their normal right to vote for what they think is right, completely withing the borders of the constitutional laws.

It's typical that the frustratos at the right side call that 'fascistic'.
You know what's fascistic?
Calling that fascistic.
Bunch of losers, I'd say.
Let's see what happens in November.

http://youtu.be/vAFQIciWsF4

[garyb]

you're intitled to your opinion, but actually, i doubt if you know shit about US constitutional law.

the most egregious violations of constitutional law are not voted on at all. they are instituted as policy decisions or executive orders. very little, if anything of any important issue is up for vote or debate, and bad policy is enforced with violence.

i'd like to know where you come up with a scientific number like "more than half". more than half of Americans feel so disenfranchised that they don't vote at all. also, it really doesn't matter what happens in November, the same policies will continue, even if there are slight adjustments. since Obama has been in office has the USA really been less aggressive than under Bush? have all the troops come home? has the Patriot act been rescinded? has the Federal Reserve Bank been curtailed? has business been brought back home?

[dawman]

The magical numbers come from the various links he posts from such noble Newspapers from Washington D.C. and New York, or other Nanny States.
Americans never read those rags but they are quite popular everywhere else.
If it wasn't for foreigners reading them, they'd be out of business.

Hey Hubird why aren't there any Blacks in the Queens Castle or some mixed racial lines in the Royal Dutch Family...?
Surely the inventors of the African slavery trade had a few Brotha's banging the Princesses/Princes and Queens...? Were they snuffed out to keep pure bloodlines...?

Yeah, I can't see a Brotha' being drug around in some gay Purple Carriage anyways, with Royal Dutch Marines lining the road, and the Brotha' Pimped out like Dr. Detroit.....

[hubird]

Bunch of losers, I'd say.

Sorry for that one, didn't mean it so personally.
But I feel it as a personal attack if one calls something 'fascistic' if it only concerns social-democratic values and it's expressions like a social health care system.
Not meaning anyone has to support those political goals...just don't call them fascistic.

@ Garyb: 'half of the Americans' refers to the majority which voted for Obama.
The nonvoters can't be included, that's right.
Stil a majority of voters...50%+

quote: I doubt if you know shit about US constitutional law
Sure, but I do know that politics according social-democratic values are totally constitutional.
It was a reaction to Jimmy's words, especially these ones:
I'm tired of working hard and being free, I want a strong central Government to buy my hardware, feed me, provide health care.

If you (in casu Mr. Vegas) call social policy 'fascistic' then you are talking about me, hence my reaction.
Planetz is more than the Californian Connection, you know...

Obama just got elected, 100% regulary (not like Bush junior BTW), so accept that some of your American fellows think different.
That's not fascistic, that's democratic.

About the Dutch who are responsible for (about 10% of) the historical slavory trading: it's a shame, but hey, you got Strange Fruit Billy Holliday, Charly Parker, The Staple singers, Chuck Berry, Howlin' Wolf, lady Aretha, Miles Davis, Michael Jackson, Prince and Barack Obama back for it, so you could also thank me.

About mixed racial lines in the Royal Dutch Family: no blacks involved as far as I know, but I'm sure old Beatrix wouldn't reject fit Obama.

quote: Were they snuffed out to keep pure bloodlines...?
No.
White Royals just didn't fuck around with Black Servants.

Did Get Up Offa That Thing Dr. Washington J.F.K. ever teach black women in the White House swimming pool?
And except the sugar, wasn't the only brown thing involved between Bill and Monica the sigar itself?

PS. I'm not a middle of the road news follower, I just can't expect you to read Dutch papers...so if I wanne link to news items I read in my Dutch papers, I just go to the sites of American papers I know out of my head, and give you the (corresponding) readable link, just to serve you.
You should give me credits for that, instead of...

[garyb]

it's cool when you link to Dutch papers, too. i enjoy seeing a story from another perspective sometimes...

what's fascistic is only giving corporate entities concession stands within the government.

[dawman]

The US Treasury owns the Worlds Largest Car Manufacturer 50%, 75% of the Worlds Largest Insurance Broker ( AIG ), Ally Banks.....etc.
The reason Obamacare will be turned over is simply because the Treasury needs the revenue streams from owning the Worlds Insurance rackets. Why do you think Obamacare couldn't take effect for 4 years?...........They needed to make some money.
But now that they're use to making so much cash as Facists, they will make sure litigation for a new form of Government Provided health Care will take years more of litigation.
Americans and even Mexicans who can sneak across the border safely get coverage in the Hospitals for free, the Poor have Medicaid which is great insurance, and the DC elites got tired of paying for it, hence the takeover.
Being Capitalistic has it's advantage, then so does Socialism and Facism. A Government so immense and wealthy can be whatever it wants, when it wants, and there's nothing any of us can do about it. But to deny yourself the facts is being dillusional.
If Obama wins again it had nothing to do with the votes, it's the real rulers who makes these guys do the Potomac 2 Step.
Gore actually won the popular vote in 2004, but the real rulers used the Electorial College to change the results, Gore then went to the Supreme Court and never even made it there as he was offered a new job, as the Carbon Credit King where he would make Billions taking advantage of enviromentally concerned citizens. He failed at that too.
So it doesn't matter what a President says, or if he wins that counts, but what the boys who print the cash and place the troops say.
I bet that Nobel Peace Prize still chaps the UN and EUs ass though......

[hubird]

A terrible situation you have to live in, I would migrate if I was you.
Or fight for a strong and independent government.

There's more needed for fascism than the existence of a military-industrial complex and abuse of public governance.

[hubird]

what's fascistic is only giving corporate entities concession stands within the government.

I call that corruption.
You can have it in several degrees.

Don't worry, when I was a 17 year old schoolboy I wrote a (typical) school paper/speech about 'American Imperialisme', with all the backgrounds of governmental, army and CIA tricks to ensure the availability of sources.
I was aware already what my ancestors worldwide did in the 17th century.

Still, imperialism, the modern face of colonialism, isn't 'fascism'.
For a good analysis it's important to make the right differentiations.
Like greed isn't racism, or something.

To say Obama want a health care system to finance wars or get even more rich as a government is too stupid to be true.
Believe what you want, but you must feel desperate.
The hate against everything which smells to social policy makes you completely implausible as a fighter against corruption.
At best you look like moral nihilists, historically always the best starting point for (real) fascism, even when unintentionally.

[valis]

Don't worry, when I was a 17 year old schoolboy I wrote a (typical) school paper/speech about 'American Imperialisme', with all the backgrounds of governmental, army and CIA tricks to ensure the availability of sources.
I was aware already what my ancestors worldwide did in the 17th century.

Still, imperialism, the modern face of colonialism, isn't 'fascism'.
For a good analysis it's important to make the right differentiations.
Like greed isn't racism, or something.

Though the discussion here is in the context of Iran, I think the references gary makes to fascism have more to do with internal politics than the use of our forces in 3/4's of the world's ~200 countries (and special forces doing black ops in 78 countries atm!)

In other words Nestor is concerned about the mideast, you about the tone of those involved in the discussion and gary about the loss of civil liberties & economic choices at home due to the 'revolving door' between megacorp entities & the govt. that was initially intended to regulate them (the Fed. govt's main stated goal was initially regulation of interstate commerce, and setting of treaties related to commerce with other countries). Military was initially by individual states but this went away right at the same time we got the IRS, Fed. Reserve, Prohibition and numerous other changes to our national structure ~100 years ago at the start of the military industrial complex's extreme buildup: 2 World Wars, a Cold War, now 4 "unofficial" wars which we shouldn't even be able to do (Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War 1, and our current efforts in AfghanIraqSyriaTajikistanianian & neighboring 'allies'.)

Historically I'd agree that Imperial efforts seem to be the norm during the rise and leading up to the inevitable collapse of Empires, especially those that that put forth fiat currency. However in this case I think Imperialism is wrong because the parties playing this game have no national allegiance or particularly national existence (except where it's useful for tax purposes).

And though where it intersects with the discussion on Iran isn't specifically about fascism, gary brings that up because the parties that profit by these efforts are indeed corporate--profiting by the arms/factories as well as control of the resources abroad and so much more.

And while introducing the context of Imperialism here makes sense in past history, the entities that pull the financial strings in our governing body at present here are not bound by the borders that they're controlling. Which imo breaks invoking the classic Imperialistic formula to describe the situation. Rather discussing the use of the USA as some sort of 'policing body' that is ultimately profit generating on many many levels really is about corporate profits being paramount today. It's more important to keep large companies afloat that have a relationship with the government than it is to worry about the strain on the US tax base (Too Big To Fail). It's more important to insure that corporate metrics are as LARGE as possible in how they intersect with Wall Street and financial growth (see past discussions here on megafarming, toxic culture, toxic food supply, toxic water supply etc etc). And it's more important to insure that the POST industrial military complex that draws on both public and private forces alike as needed can continue to function than it is to worry about silly conventions, globally agreed norms in intelligence gathering, norms in power brokering and norms in business and politics alike. Telco aided blanket intelligence gathering, *formerly* illegal 100-to-1 securities trading underwritten by TARP and Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac, *formerly* illegal use of power monopolies (Enron & the oil corps) to trade in futures on your own production to insure sky high profits, *formerly* unethical practices with your own customer base to get higher returns by those you bankrupt than those who actually generate income stream for you....

And these entities that play the game span multiple national borders and in their most active markets have gained the rights of an individual so that the individuals behind the entities can use the articles of incorporation as a shield to do all of these things that no individual could ever get away with. So in invoking fascism garyb imo seems to refer to the general state of our politics more than the effects it has in our military interests abroad. The difference between present US and 'classic' fascism as it existed in Europe in the past is that the control is exerted on a level high enough that Star Studded media baubles and horribly addictive combinations of carbs & trans fats can continue to pacify unabated..

[dawman]

A terrible situation you have to live in, I would migrate if I was you.
Or fight for a strong and independent government.

There's more needed for fascism than the existence of a military-industrial complex and abuse of public governance.

It's my home so I ain't going anywhere, and the time to take a stand is coming. Facism is making some of our leaders lick their lips.
Just the other night Nancy Pelosi, Queen of the Gaffs, and protector of the little people, out right stated we want more jobs for our people and higher wages as it means we get more money to help out more,..............as if we need their " protection or guidance."
Every politician in DC can be quoted for saying I wish we were like China, if just for one week.
So in Novemember I will try again and vote for any freshmens name I see in hopes it will change, but we only have local control from my experience.
FWIW I recently played in China and it was a learning experience. Steve Wynn pays his people a decent wage and Hong Kong made me miss my childhood hero Bruce Lee.
But I felt safe and free there, it is truly an International city. Macau is also really nice, the people are friendly, and love Obama as he represents equality. As a matter of fact they paint his face on walls, and then within a day they have a crew of people from some agency paint over it. Reminds me of modern Hippies actually. But I like it right where I am at, always good to be back home again, regardless of what the elite Kings & Queens in DC do.

Now lets get back to the Atomic Bombs flying and death and mayhem in Syria, Turkey, Iran and Afghanisan. You know all of those place where we shouldn't even be.....But see, just mentioning that brings me back to talking about the real powers of the world that run our societies...