The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...

[garyb]

hell if i know.

you gotta follow the money.
there are no hits without gobs of it at some point.

the artist might start as a homeless person, but the funding to put something over the top is not from homeless people. whether or not they are "evil" is up to debate, but there's a gatekeeper in there somewhere, and that gate is opened or closed according to someone's requirements. large amounts of money don't come from the sky unless you are a banker in charge of a country's money, in which case the money is generated out of ether.

it doesn't matter WHO it is, as far as my point went. i'm just mentioning that the "media" is not accidental, even if no one is going around saying "do this, write this, or say this". it's ok to believe or not believe me. it's even better to have the good time of trying to track the system down yourself.

[Nestor]

It seems that Iranians are not as easy controllable as the “news” wants us to believe, they are much more intelligent and prepared, facing up all these recent moves, than we thought at a first glance. International news and false information pressures (from our Western side of things) draws of Iran a false caricature based on hidden interests, but facts do not concede with those “news”. I would rather think that Iran has a Pandora ’s Box under their fist. I definitely do not buy the idea of a country of retarded people at all. I would rather believe they will give their enemies many frightening surprises before and through the intervention of their country. This is one of the surprises:

http://www.debka.com/article/21837/

[dawman]

They are from one of the worlds proudest cultures. I have many Iranain soccer buddies with beautiful families and they dont hide under blankets and towels from fear of being lashed.
The freaks that run that regime will be beaten and stoned by their own.
We actually want the facilities left intact as we can trace who hepled, where the parts were from, and the Suadis and Arab Emirates will thank us for decades.
The USA is surely a demon at times, but I know its people are the kindest most generous in the history of the Planet, as are other many nations, but the people of Iran and the USA should be friends when this is over and hopefully the Iranians can play soccer with the heads of varuious Mullahs and dirtbags who have stoned women, etc.
Round 'em up and have some fun....

[siriusbliss]

I've worked with some excellent Iraqi, Isreali, and Iranian engineers on the SAME project.
Great, hard-working engineers that also loved their families.
These guys have seen through the veil-of-lies and won't buy into all this bs.

Greg

[Nestor]

As long as we talk about “civilians”, I think we should not make much of a difference between “they” and “us”, because we belong together into a single mankind. We have created all the divisions that there exist out there, but not nature. Difference is SO wonderful! I like Asian, African, and all the rest of the different races in the world. I have had friends from all the corners and have enjoyed life with them so much. I had a free-jazz group formed by two Israelis and one Arab sax player; it was crazy and really cool! Sometimes, we would gather to talk about our cultures and their differences and being young and detached, we would reach the conclusion that we were all a single big family after all, this is really, the way I see life too, we are all one big family, all these fights, wars, divisions, are the interests of those who I see as “the other world”, they are the ones that do not belong.

Iran has, I recognize openly, some truly dangerous fanatics that are totally out of order, no way to defend them as that would be ridiculous. Terrorism is madness whatever it may pursuit! But the Muslim world has a lot to offer to the western world if we get interested and get to know about their culture and amazing wisdom to be found, for instance, among the ancient Sufis. The same happens with Israel and their wisdom, which is fantastic. But unfortunately, every time wisdom has been taught to the world in a pure way through centuries, interests have been there to distort what the sages taught, then their knowledge has become obsolete or fuzzy to suit those interests.

[Nestor]

Russia sends special forces, counterterrorism units to Syria, so more pepper to the sauce:

http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/po ... -to-syria-

[tjsound]

It's not exactly true

[garyb]

yeah, the Russians are denying it.

we rely don't know what's going on there and all sources are proven liars.

[hubird]

yeah, the Russians are denying it.

we rely don't know what's going on there and all sources are proven liars.

all sources are liers? always? sources are the Russian or Syrian gouvernment? or are it some news papers?
Are gouvernments or intelligence agencies 'sources'?

'All sources are (always?) liers' sounds too hopeless to me...and it's definitely not true.
It sounds like slow dripping poison for the brain...

Independent war jouirnalist and investigative reporter:
http://www.arnoldkarskens.com/

[garyb]

no, it's just factual.

the US government has lied many times. therefore, they are liars.
the CIA lies. they are liars.
the US press lies. they are liars.
the US military lies. they are liars.
the European press lies. they are liars.
the Russian government lies. they are liars.
the Russian intelligence agency lies. they are liars.
the Russian military lies, they are liars.
Israeli sources are liars.
Iranian sources are liars.

they all lie. this doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is a lie. please. that's the thinking of a simpleton. there are truths in the lies. none of us know quite what's happening because of all the stinkin liars. that's a fact.

it's not a good reason for suicide or anything. it's just a good thing to remember when forming opinions. don't worry, i only write this to remind myself.

[dawman]

I have a certain investigative journalist I happen to admire named Judith Miller, she was the reoprter who reported tha Bush and Co. sent a diplomat to Nigeria for proof of Husseins Yellow Cake purchasing, and he came back and reported to the bosses that their information was inaccurate, so out of anger they released information on the diplomats wife who was an employee of the CIA. Miller reported this and was called into Court to break her oathe by revealing her sources. Unlike politicians who lie and break their oathes for the right price she refused and was held in contempt and served her time in Jail. These are the reporters that we should pay attention to as they are often in harms way to get the truth out, but more and more their breed is dying and we get youtube news, twitter accounts, and other " sources " of information which I believe is comprimised. Besides her Dad booked me at his nightclub and paid me almost a grand a week back in the '80s. So I prefer his way of spreading the wealth. You actually earn it, but get overpaid. My kind of socialism.

And I wouldn't worry about the Russian SpecOps too much. Blackwater /EF has X Spetnaz advisors over there helping out with their EOD tricks and knowledge. That's the benefit of a mulit lingual multi national highly trained, highly paid Private Army. They can do what they want and know every trick in the book and probably invented half of them.

As far as lying goes, these guys don't lie............ They deploy and only when they are exposed do they reveal what they have been doing, and that's when the lies start.
But be proud my friends, The USA has the best liars in the world in DC. Promises of Milk and Honey and the peasants cheer them on. Then they get air instead of help, but it was somebody elses fault, so vote for me again and we'll get it right THIS TIME.

[hubird]

you're just making brute generalizations, meant to make people believe in nothing.
It's nihilism, and as such a dangerous point of view.
Fascism always starts at that point: to make people desperate, in order to make them follow the wrong leaders.

There's a lot of good journalism, it's not for nothing that 160 journalists are murdered last year.
You let them die for nothing.
You're also putting governments and intelligence agencies on one line with the press, which is a rethoric trick normaly used by undemocratic forces.

By stating someone is a liar you say something different than saying someone lies.
It should be better to name the good stuff, like Michael Moore.
You use the lies to subscribe your negative world view, you are actually glad 'they' lie.
European press is more independent that the USA one, that may be true.
Do something about it, support and name the good things, name the good parts.
Nixon got away, Bush had to apologize for his lies about the MDW, our government had to fall because of the lies, etc. etc.
Your road leads to nothing but desperation.
I protest against that.

no, it's just factual.

the US government has lied many times. therefore, they are liars.
the CIA lies. they are liars.
the US press lies. they are liars.
the US military lies. they are liars.
the European press lies. they are liars.
the Russian government lies. they are liars.
the Russian intelligence agency lies. they are liars.
the Russian military lies, they are liars.
Israeli sources are liars.
Iranian sources are liars.

they all lie. this doesn't mean that EVERYTHING is a lie. please. that's the thinking of a simpleton. there are truths in the lies. none of us know quite what's happening because of all the stinkin liars. that's a fact.

it's not a good reason for suicide or anything. it's just a good thing to remember when forming opinions. don't worry, i only write this to remind myself.

[garyb]

if you lie, you are a liar.

it's not a matter of degree.

it only makes sense that one is aware that these sources of information lie. haven't you ever heard of the idea of witholding information or even altering information for "the public good" or "to avoid panic" or "national security"? all i said was that we really don't know what is up, because these people who give the info lie. if the US press says the Russians are doing something and the Russians say they aren't, SOMEONE is not telling the truth/telling a lie. since i'm not there(or maybe even if i was, since these kinds of things are often secret), i can't say with certainty who is telling the truth. if i make a choice, it's based on "a feeling" or which side i like, not facts.

all that extra stuff about Nihlism or that i make journalists die for nothing is just your OWN type of extremism. i don't reduce everything to the most ridiculous extreme. sure there are good journalists. that doesn't mean that the press itself isn't full of lies. as i said, there IS truth in there, along with a whole lot of bull pucky. you just want to support the side that you agree with. i'm not going to support ANY side's lies. i love people, not ideas, philosophies or sophistry. i'm not AGAINST those things, i just pick the human beings first.

oh, your government feeds you lies, too. for the good stuff they do, they deserve props, plaudits, applause and approval. for the bad stuff they do, they deserve the whip and the bullet. it's that simple.

but back to the topic, as i said, i was only commenting on the one story claiming the Russians were moving hardware and that the Russians themselves deny that. that's all.

oh yeah and back off subject, "fascism is more properly called corporatism, as it is a blend of corporate and state power." B. Mussolini

[dawman]

I remember the reporters and press were key to Saddam Hussein moving his forces attention to the the beaches of Iraq and Kuwait, which Stormin' Norman planned out with the press in advance.
But that was a strategic advantage during a war, so therefore that's OK and isn't a lie.
The New York Times was key to persuading many Sheep to support Bush going into Iraq the 2nd time with their huge Headlines of " Weapons Of Mass Destruction In Iraq "...........
So collusion happens all of the time when it suits those who control the process.
The fact that Money and Power are used in every corruptive process over and over is well documented, even if it isn't taught in the text books and institutions of higher education.
But I have learned to trust a few brave reporters, and do rely on them for information as they have proven themselves many times. But to report on something like Syria, regardless if we get the truth or not, the fact they are there is pretty brave, and I respect that.
Micheal Moore was pretty much booed from the OWS protesters second session in NYC.
I guess multi millionaires who pose as crusaders of the Progressive movement, that refuse to use Union Teamsters and Union Stagehands, SAG during the production of a movie, pretty much explain how he really does like promoting a new form of Socialism, while reaping the benefits of a hard core capitalist cleching his fist fulls of his cash, as he tells us what we should be doing with our taxation and money.
I rather enjoy his movies and hypocracy, and to top it off he says he's a stong believer in Christianity. A very complex man indeed.

[hubird]

oh yeah and back off subject, "fascism is more properly called corporatism, as it is a blend of corporate and state power." B. Mussolini

now that you for the second time rely on a fascist dictator to prove you're right:
since when let we define historical phenomenons (history) by the main actor(s) of those phenomenons?.
Is Mussolini a content reference for you?

If you wanne give a definition of Nazism do you then rely on definitions by Adolf Hitler?
Would you ask Mugabe for a definition of his dictatorship?

Besides, it's too ridiculous to constrain the term fascism to such a narrow and pure formalistic description, if it's true at all in this formula.
You're using an old trick, namely take a smal part, mix a word with not related phenomenons, and there you go.
So you bring back fascism to one aspect (corporatism), chain that to social democracy, and halleluja, social democracy is corporatisme is fascism.
It's below every scientific truth, it's just your own private desillusion which you make to the normative rule here on this board.

Where you get the chance, even if it's really far-fetched, you try to vent this antidemocratic or at least very negative view to anything 'societal', be it government, press, an official report, leaked emails from scientist, a simple remark about something from a paper, whatever but you try to make your absurd and radical point.
Yes, radical. The prove is that you don't wanne have it linked to the company which brings us here together.
Valis referred to it as 'apathetic', a psychological category, but the opposite 'flow' you use to push your anti-attitude doesn't really show up as 'apathetic', on the contrary.
I feel it as slow poison to the (off topic) atmosphere on this board, and I'm not the only one.
It's not good for the public atmosphere.

It's absolutely not that I don't like you as a person, but I hate your so called political attitude and moreover the sick way you try to make your believes to the dominant ones here.

By the way:
- if someone lies, he is not a liar.
One isn't his behavior, even not if he lies 'always' and intendedly.
But the latter I give to you...IF that's the underlying message. But then say so openly.
- in addition, with your statement 'the press lies' you try to state without saying it: 'the press lies intentionally', and it does that always.
These are just rhetorical tricks, a shame for a erudite person like you.

I have all the time, go on and I'll be there

[garyb]

"liar" means nothing more than "one who lies". if you lie, you are a liar. from there, we can look at why one is a liar.

in some cases, being a liar may even be the proper behavior. in general, it is not. so to say, "you must not be a liar!" is gereally good advice, but when it is not good advice, it is not. it's easy to see the exception to the rule, except when the rules made to benefit humans get confused for the humans made to benefit the rules.

i use Mussolini's definition of fascism because he is the one who coined the word. this is the proper and true definition. anything else is misuse.

actually, since Corporations have been given the same rights as human beings, i find ALL types of fascism to be unacceptable, even the "benign" ones. there is no non-human entity(the very DEFINITION of the word corporation), that knows what is best for human needs and purposes. humans should rule corporations, not vice versa. human creations are for human purposes, not the other way around.

yes, i would ask Hitler for a definition of Nazism. yes, i would. i would bet that he knows exactly what it is, assuming that he was the one who made it reality. changing the meaning of the word to suit the convienience of the times smells too much like the ministry of information's job for my sense of well being. it was proven by Humpty Dumpty that words can't just be used for whatever one finds most appealing at the moment without consequences. it's better to not get up on that wall in the first place.

it doesn't matter how we feel about these terms, they are what they are.

it's good to know that much of what is public is a lie. how else can you have a chance at seeing anything clearly? how else can there be a chance of righting wrongs and enacting justice and making a better world for the people who live in it if people just push the ugly truth that they are lied to constantly?

i NEVER suggest the extremism of all or nothing, except in a sentence like this one(the word "never" is an all or nothing word). all of that is your perception of my words. it's unfortunate, but it says as much about the reader's thinking as it does about my own, maybe more...

[garyb]

but back to reality, the source of these "radical" accusations is that there was a widely reported article about Russian troop and ship movement that Nestor posted.

tjsound posted that the article wasn't completely true.

i did a little research and found that the Russian government denied that these actions were taking place.

at this point, someone is lying. i commented that we can't really know quite what is happening because the Russians can't be doing an action and not doing that action at the same time. either ships, men and equipment have moved or they haven't. since both sides have lied about these types of things in the past, neither side is completely believable.

it's really that simple. all the other commentary about the commentary is obfuscation.

[dawman]

What I enjoy most about these threads are all the big words. Si not inly do I learns new routings and Moduilar traicks, new big Ivy League words which still means they're a sense of civility, so by all means keep teaching me as all involved the recent media distractions.
I am more concrened with Gas Prises which is a sad fault of mine that shows my inhumane numbness to the over used search engines and forum opinions of a war i only see on youtube and the lamestream media.
What's really sad is how much better the Norwegians, Dutch and Califormnisn speak better than me.

Chinga..........

[garyb]

it's just a bad habit.

yeah, gas prices are disturbing when you think that it only costs about 50 cents a gallon to refine and deliver the fuel to the pump. if they make 100% profit it's a buck a gallon. i know that there are taxes and everything, but where is all this extra money really going?

[hubird]

yeah, gas prices are disturbing when you think that it only costs about 50 cents a gallon to refine and deliver the fuel to the pump. if they make 100% profit it's a buck a gallon. i know that there are taxes and everything, but where is all this extra money really going?

well, a liter essence costs almost 2 US dollar here in Europe, it is a milk cow even more here, but hey, we have the roads, you have the holes.