XITE 1 and laptop (macbook update)

[Tau]

Hi!

I finally ordered the EC interface for the XITE and tried it on 2 different MacBook Pros, a pre unibody 2007 model, and a unibody 2008. Someone was asking about this the other day, so here it is:

Both machines were running W7 HP 32 bit on Bootcamp, Scope version was 5.0. As expected, the older MBP works very well, while the newer one simply doesn't. I have said it before, but it's never too much to say it again: 15" Unibody MacBook Pros with EC (that's the 5,1 model) do not work with most Express Cards under bootcamp. Useless for Scope.
On another note, the older MBP can also deal with 2xScope PCIs on a Magma EC chassis or an RME Multiface via PCMCIA to EC adapter, but the other won't do any of these (not even under OSX in the case of the RME).

I'm trying to sell it, and have been looking into laptop PCs, but it's not easy to find one with EC round here: I could only find Vaio, Dell and Lenovo that do, but the latter two are more expensive, and have to be ordered. I don't need the latest and greatest, but something that can handle the XITE and Live in realtime with heavy MIDI traffic without hiccups. When it comes to laptops, I'm still in Core2Duo era, so I would just like to ask a few questions:

- do recent platforms (i3, i5, i7) work better that the Core2 with the XITE in therms of PCIe bandwidth, or is it a step back?
- does the i5 have any impairment compared to the i7, aside from being slower? I mean, eg does it have "special" energy settings that make it unusable for Audio?
- anybody know or recommend a laptop for XITE that works great, or doesn't work at all?

Thanks!

[jksuperstar]

I'm in Core2Duo land as well, and things are fine. Based on MasterVerb tests and what not, the processor or even the chipset have much to do with the throughput of the EC card. GaryB has an old P4 running the system fine.

It's my belief that the EC card runs at PCIe 1.0 speeds (250MB/s), while the PCIe card for motherboards is running at PCIe 2.0 speeds (500MB/s). Any laptop with EC will handle that bandwidth, no problem. It is also beyond the bandwidth of 3 PCI cards.

The i5 does not have hyperthreading, but most people find it needs to be disabled in the i7 to do real time audio work anyways. So you might not find a difference in the end. Cache size differences, core speed, and memory bandwidth should be the numbers you want to look up for a particular processor or laptop. I've seen some data for EC performance of various laptops, but I don't think that's an issue really, since they seemed nearly identical. I don't remember the link to that comparison right now.

[siriusbliss]

Maybe if you contacted ADK and asked them if they have any slightly older i7's still lying around that have the PROPER PCIe port that will work with Xite, then they might be able to help you out.

They know about Scope/Xite, and my ADK was/is/has been a very stable laptop with Xite.

I find everything on the i7's to indeed be snappier and tighter (compared to my older duocore).

Greg

[garyb]

the Dell Vostro 1400 that i bought for $250 or so works extremely well. it's running win7 64bit...

[Tau]

Thank you, guys! JK, that info is very useful... Seems like the i5 is the sensible option, at least moneywise.

Gary and Greg, I had already read about both your ADK and Vostro, and looked into them. ADKs seem to be very expensive when ordered from Portugal (a bit over my budget), and strange as it may be, Dell is very hard to find here, only new machines direct from the company, so older models are hard to come by...

I'm more inclined towards a newer laptop, as I will be needing some power to run the live set. My old MBP CoreDuo can handle the XITE, but it gets extremely hot running Live... the fans need to be at max speed, and I'm always afraid it's going to shutdown, or burn up (I dropped it a couple of years ago, and it's been like this ever since). Never happened, though

I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks for the input!

[jksuperstar]

My fans run, too. But I added a USB Hub/Fan unit that sits underneath the laptop to push cool air on it. I was paranoid that something would go wrong on stage. Been using this rig for 6 years now...

[dawman]

I must advise against any CPU that has integrated GPU, either on package ( clarksdale ) or on die ( sandy Bridge.)
The reason is simple. I bought a Clarksdale and built a 1U for Kontakt, l;uckily it worked OK, but the GPU gets first access to RAM which seems to cripple powerful CSTi's like Omnisphere, and even made Reaper, which is usually hiccup free, gag while trying to use Kontakt as a VSTi.
Standalone however, was fine.
So trust no benchmarks unless PCI performance is used, and definately do not use 4.8 QPI, only 6.4 QPI. It will work, but you will be wanting to upgrade much sooner.
I didn't really need the extra power for Kontakt, but I am getting Omnisphere and a VAX77 since SOlaris and Omnisphere finally have Polyphonic aftertouch...
So I snagged a 980X CPU that is 4.132 GHz/6.4 QPI. It blows the i7 930 @ 4.2 / 4.8 QPI out of the wqater when VSTi juice is what's needed.
But if you dont need all of that the example GaryB used is a huge savings for mobil;e recording and live PA + DSP synths, etc.

[Tau]

It's never easy to pick a computer, is it?

I found a few more models that have EC , and I'm reading up on the tech stuff before I make a decision... Thank you for your valuable input.

Anyway, I've been experimenting on the old MBP plus XITE, right now I'm installing Live to see how it works, I figure I might as well get a good image of what this system does do before I get hypnotized by numbers.

The heating issue seems to be common in these machines... I just get a bit nervous because I already made some DIY interventions (with success), but am always afraid I left something out ... It's controlllable under OSX using some utilities (SMC Fan Control), and for windows, there's a program called Input Remapper that allows tweaking the fan speed and other stuff.

There's another program called NHC (Notebook Hardware Control) that allows further tweaking of the system. This free Beta version lets you disable all sleep states for the CPU, at least on this CoreDuo. Maybe it can work for i3/5/7 too, and override some locked BIOS settings I hear about in some laptops (VAIO, for eg.)

[Tau]

Well, this is weird...

I managed to get the heat under control on the MBP, when using OSX. It boots at 35 C, and never goes over 65 C. I tweaked the fan to kick in a little earlier, and it can manage the lighter Live projects (mostly audio clips and a little FX) with ease. It does get hot when doing more demanding applications, like Metasynth, for eg.

But now, as soon as I load Win 7, the CPU goes up to 99 C and over!! I read this has to do with Windows ability to control the fans, but even under manual control, and at full speed, the system's idle temperature is on the high 90 s... The CPU load is very low (0-4%), and even setting visuals to best performance, it doesn't get any lower. By placing it under a ventilated aluminium base it goes down to 77 -80 C, but easily goes back up to 99 if I open an application, for instance...

First thing I thought was that the CPU temp monitor was wrong, but I tried many well regarded ones, and they all agree. The computer feels noticeably hotter to the touch under Win7, even with the fans at full blast from boot. But this is all very confusing to me: if the system is idle, the CPU isn't working (0-4% use reported), and the fans are blowing at full speed, why isn't it getting cooler? Seems to be against the laws of physics...

As soon as I boot into OSX, the fans blow at full speed for a minute or so, the CPU reported temp goes down from 80 something to 40 something, fans slow down, all goes back to normal, as it should.

I have no idea of what Win 7 is doing to the computer... since this is a 2GB RAM machine anyway, I'm going to try XP and see how it does with XITE and Live...

[garyb]

some kinda sabotage....

apple doesn't want you using a m$ os...

[Tau]

could be, you never know... But I bet they do!

It turns out that the "maximum performance" power settings, which basically keeps the CPU at full speed, has this effect, while the "balanced" setting actually works pretty well, the temps go down to 40- 50 C, so it's quite alright.

I had it working nicely with the XITE - 7ms ULLI, 16 ASIO channels, Mod Mixer, FX, Proddy and Pro-Wave, Live playing 8-10 audio clips and 4 MIDI tracks... even the ipad via wireless MIDI. (no VSTis or Modular, though)

I thought that if the CPU stayed at max speed, the performance would be better, so I decided to lock and undervolt it. Using NPrime and RMClock utility, I found that I could drop the voltage of the full clock state from 1.350 to around 1.100 while remaining stable. As a result, the laptop was running at a steady 2.2 GHz, with temps of around 55 C.

This sounds and looks OK, but when I went back to Live, I found I had to use the highest ULLI setting just to get a straight beat playing. Even just playing Scope synths via MIDI seems to cause crackles!

I'll be doing some more experiments later to see if I can get a decent performance out of that machine or not... I'm still tempted to try out XP, maybe it would have been the best choice in the first place.

I'll let you know how it goes!