Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

A place to talk about whatever Scope music/gear related stuff you want.

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polemic
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by polemic »

dante wrote:The I/O's are just graphical representations of your PC softwares drivers or external devices.
Thanks for that link it explains a lot!

Basically I'd just like to instance a scope synth in Cubase via XTC and do most of my work there, for example editing of presets and then save the preset for later use in scope environment since I have other audio devices I regularly use and don't want to be wedded to one or the other method.

Is this at all possible?
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dante
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by dante »

I don't see why not. I don't use XTC mode but cant see why the preset mechanism would work differently from in Scope mode. All its doing is saving the synth settings to a text file on your hard drive somewhere, which would be the same info regardless of whether you had the Scope synth loaded in XTC or direclty in a Scope project.

I mean, a square wave lead is a square wave lead :)
polemic
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by polemic »

dante wrote:I mean, a square wave lead is a square wave lead :)
This is a very important point I believe, since I use only Cubase and the "de-facto" standard preset mechanism fxp/fxb is no longer used.

I don't know if those old presets worked with Scope env. but if scope has it's own preset handling that is compatible between both the wrapper and scope mode plugin versions then I guess I'm good to go.

Any further comment would be greatly appreciated here.

Regards all
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dante
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by dante »

..cant confirm on wrappers since not in studio to try it...maybe others answer this one...

obviously I'm gonna have to learn XTC now for Scoperise...
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garyb
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by garyb »

presets are presets, Scope or XTC mode. actually, the settings are saved in Scope mode when you save a project, for most devices, whether or not you make a preset.
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Mr Arkadin
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by Mr Arkadin »

polemic wrote: This is a very important point I believe, since I use only Cubase and the "de-facto" standard preset mechanism fxp/fxb is no longer used.

I don't know if those old presets worked with Scope env. but if scope has it's own preset handling that is compatible between both the wrapper and scope mode plugin versions then I guess I'm good to go.
Scope presets have nothing to do with wrappers, fxbs or anything. Each device has its own preset list, see below:
Presets.JPG
Presets.JPG (224.7 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
This is Minimax with its preset list to the right of the main GUI. In Cubase you would just enter "10" into the Inspector on a MIDI track. Cubase doesn't know what Program 10 is, that depends on the presets you have stored in Scope. Scope presets are stored in their own folder with the extension .pre - forget the VST paradigm, Scope is its own universe that will happily integrate with almost any host sequencer.
polemic
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by polemic »

Mr Arkadin wrote:Scope presets are stored in their own folder with the extension .pre - forget the VST paradigm, Scope is its own universe that will happily integrate with almost any host sequencer.
Ahh so you can "share" presets made in Scope environment with Scope devices wrapped in Cubase and viceversa am I on the right track here?

Massive pictures BTW :P
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dante
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by dante »

If by 'share' you mean :

1) OPEN MINIMAX IN CUBASE XTC ==> SELECT LEAD PATCH ==> TWEAK (INCREASE RESONANCE) IN LEAD PATCH ==> SAVE MINIMAX PATCH ==> CLOSE CUBASE

2) OPEN MINIMAX IN SCOPE PROJECT ==> OPEN PATCH FILE ==> SELECT LEAD PATCH ==> INCREASED RESONANCE WILL BE AS SAVED IN CUBASE XTC

then yeah :)
polemic
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by polemic »

dante wrote:then yeah :)
Dante thanks for the confirm of that bit of information, edging me just that bit closer to the S|C universe.

Seems too good to be true in many of ways, but I still don't understand if or why you can/cannot use Scope devices in a DAW and still have scope mode at the same time, indeed set the ASIO driver in Cubase say to "no driver" then open Scope env and next set the driver in Cubase to scope ASIO and wallah!

Maybe I'm a complete nincompoop but can it already do what I ask or is it some how redundant in some way?

I recall some information in this forum about the system supporting the latest ASIO spec. or is does it not use it (ASIO that is) in scope mode and instead uses windows audio since it's not available on Mac yet or X-ite?

Greets all
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dante
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by dante »

No, its doesnt work like that ( at least not in Scope mode ). You have to open Scope first and add ASIO connections. Such that when Cubase opens, it will see those connections the same way it would see drivers. Opening Scope and setting up ASIO connections is like 'registering drivers with windows' that Cubase or other daw sequencer can see.
polemic
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by polemic »

dante wrote:You have to open Scope first and add ASIO connections. Such that when Cubase opens, it will see those connections the same way it would see drivers.
OK so I gather it is like any other regular sound card control panel, except there is a "scope world" that allows for everything including typical pan (left/right volume) and levels etc. as well as MIDI and audio i/o plus it accesses the DSP's to run effects.

I know with RME it has XlinX to mix but no effects but MOTU does have effects.
Last edited by polemic on Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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garyb
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by garyb »

Scope devices are external HARDWARE devices, as far as the sequencer is concerned. they NEVER run on the cpu. the "wrapper" is only a connection between the sequencer and the synth or whatever. Scope IS the actual environement that the sequencer is running in(virtually), NOT the other way around. xtc mode is actually a simplification, a limitation of Scope. in return for a fixed routing(Scope mode offers freely dynamic routing), Scope plugins run inside the sequencer, with latency(compensated for on playback by the sequencer). in xtc mode, for all intents and purposes, Scope behaves like a normal, stupid windows soundcard. :)

Scope mode is true virtual reality that makes everything inside and outside the computer talk to eachother in what is(virtually) realtime. if you understand music production hardware, have a real studio, or wish to learn about real gear, then Scope mode is a way to have literally 100's of thousands of dollars of REAL gear in a compact package. it is not really dependant on the computer, except for the human graphic interface and the sequenecer/recorder. like all real gear, it never really becomes outdated, because real gear that sounds good ALWAYS sounds good. that's why old synths and compressors and mics are often super expensive, even though they're "obsolete". just like with a pile of gear in the real world(multitrack recorders, compressors, mixers, synths, delays, etc), there are infinite ways to connect the devices in Scope. every connection possible in the real world, can be made in REAL TIME in the computer with Scope. with Scope you can also go in and out of the real world as much as you like, with no more latency than with any other HARDWARE. you can also stream from one program to another as you please(i use Cubase for my multitrack recorder and stream to Samplitude for my two track deck). in this mode, i mix in the Scope mixer(but still use whatever vsts i wish as well as sequencer automation), the benefit being much better sound(imho). the other beautiful thing about Scope is that it plays well with all your future hardware. it's a 10-20 year investment, not a 6 month toy.

these two modes can't blend with each other. it's either one or the other. mix in the sequencer or mix in Scope, but the devices and presets are the same.
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garyb
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by garyb »

polemic wrote:
dante wrote:You have to open Scope first and add ASIO connections. Such that when Cubase opens, it will see those connections the same way it would see drivers.
OK so I gather it is like any other regular sound card control panel, except there is a "scope world" that allows for everything including typical pan/volume etc.

Sounds good!

Why not other manufacturers do the same or they are not as creative people
it's NOTHING like other soundcards. others haven't been able to do this because it's very difficult and not necessarily profitable. it's easy to just sell toys and hype them, than to be cutting edge(look how hard this is to explain to you here! :lol: ). the other thing is that the guys at S|C are truly some of the very best in their field. the product is truly a miracle. it's been more than 10 years and the original design is still beyond anybody else's. the XITE is actually something that A|D(the makers of the Sharc processors on the cards and in the XITE-1) thought impossible. really.
polemic
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by polemic »

garyb wrote:these two modes can't blend with each other. it's either one or the other. mix in the sequencer or mix in Scope, but the devices and presets are the same.
Thanks for the explanation, and I don't want to give short shrift to such a well detailed response, but why not do both, after all every bit of SC hardware has more than 1 DSP, surely the OS can "pipe" audio via the system kernel using multi-client, or WASAPI?

Maybe I'm not understanding but either way I guess it doesn't matter since as dante said whatever presets I make in cubase can be used in scope mode.

EDIT: I saw your extra post, why did Analog Devices think impossible?
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dante
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by dante »

I guess what I would query is why you would need both modes at once. To me, Scope mode by itself is all you need (with XTC thrown in as a bonus for those that want to work that way). But I cant for the life of me think of any functional benefit to running both at once, and if there was one, it would be so marginal as to not really take off with many users and therefore a waste of time for S|C to support.

As I always say, leave S|C to DSP programming - coz thats where the real gains in development of the platform will come. The Win Gui (especially now that its 64 bit) is more than good enough.

Optimising XITE-1 atoms is where theres real gains to be had now...
polemic
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by polemic »

dante wrote:I guess what I would query is why you would need both modes at once. To me, Scope mode by itself is all you need (with XTC thrown in as a bonus for those that want to work that way). But I cant for the life of me think of any functional benefit to running both at once, and if there was one, it would be so marginal as to not really take off with many users and therefore a waste of time for S|C to support.
Interoperability :)

SC is not the only system out there and even just lately nuendo/cubase 5 and 5.5 respectively, will match VST connections to existing inputs and outputs even if the underlying driver changes.
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dante
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by dante »

Nothing stopping you from hooking both Cubase & Nuendo to Scope at the same time ( if Cubase & Nuendo will both load simultaneously).

I guess what I'm really wondering is the actual practical benefit in terms of making music you'd get from it.
polemic
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by polemic »

dante wrote:I guess what I'm really wondering is the actual practical benefit in terms of making music you'd get from it.
Versatility of operation ;)

To clarify, I don't use nuendo, just saying that the VST Connections paradigm has changed in anticipation.
polemic
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by polemic »

Maybe it can be done what I'm suggesting anyway, since as Mr Arkadin said, you load cubase first, so if I was working with one sound card and scope devices as wrapped VST's then I could change ASIO driver and work from there, problem I guess is then I'd loose those wrapped devices as they'd suddenly become unavailable. :(
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dante
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Re: Scope 4.0 v 4.5 v 5.0

Post by dante »

Yeah - spose I dont really know enough bout XTC mode to comment. I can only say that in Scope mode, changing drivers in Cubase while Scope is running ( to and from SCOPE ASIO to onbard sound etc) is a lot more stable operation than it used to be ( it doesnt crash my system anymore ).

I just dont have a reason to do so, short of the very rare occassion I've overloading my DSP's and need to re-establish the driver connection.
Last edited by dante on Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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