Clicks when moving faders/pots etc.

[grappa]

Could really do with some help with this one.

I've got a new machine with v4 & v5 (popped into service just before v5 release but not really used before v5)

I've noticed that I am getting clicks/noise as I move faders/pots (generally related to gain) on both stock and 3rd party plugs.

For example if i run a test sine signal from ctrl room and rotate the level of the sign in the ctrl room plug I get a sort of zipper noise. If I do the same thing with input gain on 1632/2448 I get the same (and to a lesser degree with the fader) and any of my SpaceF mixers (FB5 + V82) exhibit this clearly when moving the faders. I've also noticed this when rotating pots on Colossus and other plugs.

This noise in only generated when a signal is present i.e. if I move the fader/pot with no signal through a channel I get no noise generated at the output.

If I map a CC to one of these and close the surface the noise is still present when I manipulate the CC.

I've checked IRQ's for my Gfx card and its different to my S|C cards and I've also turned off write-combining and hardware acceleration on the display props with no joy.

Appreciate any advice.

Si

[garyb]

the video card is not the only thing that might share an irq with your Scope card....

[grappa]

Gary,

Having read many of your fantatstic posts the first thing I did was check IRQ assignments and sadly none share my S|C cards.

You were my last hope

Si

[garyb]

others have had this problem. i just don't remember all the fixes. have you tried another power supply?

[MCCY]

As far as I know, these (subtle) noizes (fast moving gain faders while playing music) are 'normal' on the platform. There are ways to avoid them, which I did with my Xfader-devices, but that's dsp-hungry because you need sync interpolation, every async-interpolation produces that noizes. As I could avoid them that way, I think they're not configuration-related. Although it could be, that async calculating is somehow influenced by other pc-factors....

[garyb]

yeah, but it shouldn't be obvious, not a mixer fader anyway.

[the19thbear]

thats one problem i have with scope.. the clicks when moving faders.
I dont remember having problems with the clicks on faders of the mixers though??
are you sure that its not only on some fx/synths?

[astroman]

... For example if i run a test sine signal from ctrl room...

then you should be really concerned when recording pure sine waves...

use a 'regular' signal and the zippers will be gone, almost magically
it's in the nature of the sine and you can find that very same behavior in almost every digital system, once you feed it a sine wave...

cheers, Tom

[next to nothing]

i actually had zipping noise on my SpaceF mixer yesterday as well, running a normal audiotrack thru it... and i didnt have this before, im sure of that. will test more tomorrow to narrow it down.

[Shroomz~>]

Some volume attenuators in Scope perform better than others upon doing these tests. I think this is possibly due to various curve differences both in atoms & modules and also between those modules & surface controls for their parameters. A while back when I was digging around in the sdk trying to find the best performing gain module (in this particular regard) I discovered one in the mixer components folder that performs very very well indeed, but haven't yet discovered how to replicate it's quality with lower level atoms. Maybe it's using a technique similar to what MCCY mentioned above. Using the provided dezip atoms certainly doesn't always help. In fact, I've often found that they don't make any difference at all in this respect.

[garyb]

ah yes, the sine wave...

[Shroomz~>]

The sine wave isn't the cause of the zipping, it's simply the best method of highlighting it.

[MCCY]

Yes, it's sine-wave-independend.

[grappa]

Guys,

I'll post an mp3 later so you can see I'm not nuts - Oh and I found it by running real signals through my mixers as I do find a sine can be a little boring at times

I am also seeing this when rotating knobs on Colossus and others but only when generating a signal i.e. if I don't play anything I get no noise.

Si

[valis]

Basically, neither midi (automation) nor user-input via mouse/keyboard (windows GDI+ on up) work at audiorate speeds, nor are they 'synced' to samplerate. Midi's time window when using a cabled midi connection is about 1ms or so, within the host OS from sequencer to scope or from a usb device > sequencer(or midiloopback) > scope the time window may be less but it will be still considerably larger so, move a fader via midi or mouse and you get these largish time windows where the value of the fader 'jumps'.

Think of old analog & VA style synths where you get parameter jumps when doing filter sweeps from a front panel knob. The knob is sending discrete parameter changes that result in 'jumps' due to both midi's limited resolution (128 values with 'typical' CC's) and larger time-window. What more modern synths do is take this input and 'interpolate' it, in a similar fashion to using a slew-rate limiter (or 3-6db lowpass for flexor) within modular. This 'interpolation' should also work at audiorate, or instead of louder clicks you'll simply get a series of more but smaller (quieter) clicks.

So basically in order to avoid clicking you need to do what MCCY mentions:

As far as I know, these (subtle) noizes (fast moving gain faders while playing music) are 'normal' on the platform. There are ways to avoid them, which I did with my Xfader-devices, but that's dsp-hungry because you need sync interpolation, every async-interpolation produces that noizes. As I could avoid them that way, I think they're not configuration-related. Although it could be, that async calculating is somehow influenced by other pc-factors....

Sync = audiorate

[grappa]

Thanks for the information and everyone's input into this.

I will definately try and post and example because although I take on board all that has been said this is in no way a subtle effect and thats why I think I actually have a problem as opposed to a side effect of the processing mechanism.

Si

[Shroomz~>]

Thanks for the information and everyone's input into this.

I will definately try and post and example because although I take on board all that has been said this is in no way a subtle effect and thats why I think I actually have a problem as opposed to a side effect of the processing mechanism.

Si

It's definitely possible to get a similar, but much worse issue than being discussed here with a graphics card problem. A few years ago we had terrible clicks & pops after building a system with Nvidia based chipset & an ATI Radeon card. As soon as we swapped out the ATI card for an Nvidia model, the problem was gone. So, what I'm saying is that there's possibly 2 completely separate issues being discussed here on this thread, in which case Gary's first reply was very close to the potential problem since he did mention graphics card straight away.

[spacef]

You can move my mixers faders at any speed you want you would never get such zipper noise.. in scope 4.x.
I think it is just a 5.0 bug that needs to be ironed out, then all will be back to normal (it can be done only at S|C).*
The don't use an enveloppe follower on every channel and they don"t (didn't) produce noise (or they would not have been released....).

Basically, neither midi (automation) nor user-input via mouse/keyboard (windows GDI+ on up) work at audiorate speeds, nor are they 'synced' to samplerate. Midi's time window when using a cabled midi connection is about 1ms or so, within the host OS from sequencer to scope or from a usb device > sequencer(or midiloopback) > scope the time window may be less but it will be still considerably larger so, move a fader via midi or mouse and you get these largish time windows where the value of the fader 'jumps'.

Think of old analog & VA style synths where you get parameter jumps when doing filter sweeps from a front panel knob. The knob is sending discrete parameter changes that result in 'jumps' due to both midi's limited resolution (128 values with 'typical' CC's) and larger time-window. What more modern synths do is take this input and 'interpolate' it, in a similar fashion to using a slew-rate limiter (or 3-6db lowpass for flexor) within modular. This 'interpolation' should also work at audiorate, or instead of louder clicks you'll simply get a series of more but smaller (quieter) clicks.

So basically in order to avoid clicking you need to do what MCCY mentions:

As far as I know, these (subtle) noizes (fast moving gain faders while playing music) are 'normal' on the platform. There are ways to avoid them, which I did with my Xfader-devices, but that's dsp-hungry because you need sync interpolation, every async-interpolation produces that noizes. As I could avoid them that way, I think they're not configuration-related. Although it could be, that async calculating is somehow influenced by other pc-factors....

Sync = audiorate

[dawman]

My Matrox G450 w/ 16MB's of RAM did this in my first DAW.
I got the G550 and it fixed the problem.
I now have an occasional problem when many apps are on the screen with a struggling mouse. I mean I have to squeeze and drag the mouse ever so slowly to it's destination.
I believe it's time for yet another new video card, and even more RAM.
This whole " more RAM " solution is really starting to annoy me.
I haven;t had the clicks or pops for a long time though.

[valis]

You can move my mixers faders at any speed you want you would never get such zipper noise.. in scope 4.x.
I think it is just a 5.0 bug that needs to be ironed out, then all will be back to normal (it can be done only at S|C).*
The don't use an enveloppe follower on every channel and they don"t (didn't) produce noise (or they would not have been released....).

Then I stand corrected, I haven't really checked for it in ages. I do recall issues in Bigmixer (was that the big blue one?) ages ago and then I could swear I had noticed a similar thing in micromixer, which I use a lot. I haven't noticed it to the degree that I worry about it these days, I only noticed it then when doing major parameter jumps anyway.

As for the graphics card issues, indeed that can pose a problem for some. Computer specs and then an IRQ check is the place to start with that one...