Can We Get Away From Musical Cliches?

[braincell]

I can not stand listening to music which is predictable yet that is what musicians and listeners seem to want.

[paulrmartin]

While I was getting a formal education at McGill U. my total composition teacher, Elliot Asarnow was always thrown by the way I would introduce the second theme in my sonata movements. I conclude that even teachers want us to write predictable music to make everybody comfortable in their listening experiences. I also conclude that he was more interested in the beautiful Gaby who was in my class...

P-SHAW! I don't believe that one minute! When Beethoven wrote his first symphony everybody went crazy because the first chord was a tonicisation of the 4th degree of the scale! (for those who don't get that: The Symphony is in C but Ludwig started the movement with a C7 chord thus throwing everybody off thinking the symphony was in F).

[Mr Arkadin]

I can not stand listening to music which is predictable yet that is what musicians and listeners seem to want.

Then don't listen to it. Problem solved. Next.

[braincell]

Thanks Paul.

[paulrmartin]

Finally, my point is that YES we CAN get away from clichés. The only problem is that 95% of the room is deaf and wouldn't really know the difference between something old and something really new...

When I say that my inspiration is at an all-time low, I mean that I can't shake those Tangerine Dream clichés loose... I need to collaborate with someone who has never heard of TD... hehehe

[kensuguro]

I think cliches are an important part of music, so it's not an either or question. Cliches and other repeated "norms" are important reference points to create drops and unexpected turns. So it's important to know them and to know them very well, so that we can use them precisely and set up the fall correctly. If everything was at flux, and all things were unpredictable and unknown, the senses will get overwhelmed so soon that, we would only be able to make extremely simple music. So, cliches, schemas, frameworks allow us to handle complex things more efficiently by chunking up. It's not a bad thing that they exist I think. Of course, it's one thing to take advantage of a cliche, but another thing to be using cliches all the time, convincing yourself that you're creating ultimate music.

It is true though, that if we don't chunk together concepts into easily usable units, we won't be able to think big things. That's why we have a conceptual hierarchy.

[paulrmartin]

Of course there is also the fact that we need to consider what is a cliché in which culture. What is Kitsch in North America may not be in South Africa. Perhaps this is the reason world music has emerged; the fact that the connected people of the industry had no more original ideas and had to "steal" ideas from different cultures in order to sound "fresh"?

But even that idea is old if you consider Ligeti's work with African rhythms, Messiaen's work with Hindu talas from whence he extracted non-retrograde rhythms and applied them to his own compositions. Bach took all the best of the German, French and Italian schools to create a fresh new approach to composition. Can it be said he took all of the clichés within these styles? As far as I can tell Bach was a walking cliché but only because of the output he had to give every single week of his life!

Then there's Mozart! His inherent habit of making cheery light music makes almost his entire work sound like a huge cliché. Of course, he did have genius but the compositional (read melodic) formulas were just overused (my opinion, of course)...

[garyb]

no.

we can not get past cliches any more than we can get past the words in the dictionary if we are to speak in English. just like English, however, those elemants can be used well or poorly or lazily....

sound is vibration and vibrational frequencies are the building blocks of matter. humans take the sounds that are there, and organize them in an artistic(or less than artistic) manner. they still use the sounds that are available or possible. there is, as Koheloth said, nothing new under the sun. there are things you or i haven't heard before. hearing unheard things is nice sometimes, sometimes, not. it all depends on one's purposes. dance music like house or hoedown or cumbia or reggae or funk require cliches to make the dance easier and more fun. music for closing one's eyes to in the living room or concert hall has a different purpose and so cliches are different.

i have never heard anything you have done braincell, that didn't have some frame of reference to me. there's no need for posturing. the posturing is just a sales technique for artists who practice "avant garde" art. it's not reality though.

[dawman]

Brotha' Man Tomas Has Something For Ya' BCell.
He plays locally here and Monday nights at the Palms were lots of fun hangin' with him last year. You'll like this stuff, but you might have to spend a dollar or two....
Spyro Gyro was a great group and were fun to watch live, but his solo stuff live is very cool, and if you're into UNpredicatable music, here's your daily bread..

https://www.isound.com/tom_schuman

[paulrmartin]

Something will always ring a bell when you listen to something. When I heard Picchio dal Pozzo for the first time I couldn't help but say "Ooh! Zappa!".

Same thing with Whoopgnash -> Holdsworth!

There is always some reference to be found BUT it doesn't mean that it's a cliché. Although...

[braincell]

Cliché as the word is commonly used has a negative connotation. It is to be avoided in literature. The problem with formulaic normal music for me is that it gets quickly stuck in my head and then I can not stop hearing it. I realize that this is a quality most listeners like because such music has a familiar sound they can relate to. It's easier to listen to because it doesn't require much thought and they don't have to deal with it playing non-stop as I do.

[Mr Arkadin]

It's easier to listen to because it doesn't require much thought and they don't have to deal with it playing non-stop as I do.

Where on earth do you work where you can't escape this music? Can't be much fun wherever it is.

[valis]

Cliché as the word is commonly used has a negative connotation. It is to be avoided in literature. The problem with formulaic normal music for me is that it gets quickly stuck in my head and then I can not stop hearing it. I realize that this is a quality most listeners like because such music has a familiar sound they can relate to. It's easier to listen to because it doesn't require much thought and they don't have to deal with it playing non-stop as I do.

A lot of those clichés because they were something that was being 'hinted at' in the music contemporary to the most obvious statement of the the motif, but until that moment occured only a musician or someone intimately involved in that world would have been able to identify what was being referenced to. Of course some moments of inspiration occur by accident or out of unexpected direction, so not every theme has entered the culture by direct descent of something easily identifiable.

However that piece comes about, once it states the theme in a way that anyone can understand it & repeat it, it might be considered cliché because it's been stated as obviously as it can. No longer having the shiny 'new'-ness of being a product just of that moment, but once that cliché theme is stated outright it can still be referenced as ken suggests. That's what a theme is in my understanding, the foundation or basis for a piece off of which you build your variation. Something instantly recognizeable but as ken states (again) it's up to the composer & performer(s) to do what they will with that.

[braincell]

Mr Arkadin, when I said I have to hear it over and over, I meant in my head. That is why I avoid pop music and that is why I now much prefer instrumental music. The only time I am forced to listen to music is when I go shopping.