A theoretical limit on sampled piano dynamics

[braincell]

May I remind you that the piano is one of the most mechanical, unnatural devices ever made for creating music.

[wayne]

It is a very simple percussive instrument.

[garyb]

May I remind you that the piano is one of the most mechanical, unnatural devices ever made for creating music.

may i remind you that it is very cool.

why else would it be copied?

[astroman]

...This is more than just hype as Astroman would love to contend. He hasn't played it. ...

while this is obviously correct, I have played an electronic piano with physical modelling of string resonance more than 10 years ago.
So this is really old technology - that's why I called it hype.
The GEM pianos never got that kind of attention.
Because it's a different company - not because their sound wasn't worth it.
You might tell the same about Kawai, who probably don't bother as they sell their stage pianos for their superior action anyway.
As mentioned, some Roland stuff is really great - but they also have a lot of crap, which they wouldn't hesitate to advertize as the latest and greatest.

cheers, Tom

[braincell]

What you tested is 10 years old, obviously it is not the same thing. I have a friend who is the editor of a music tech magazine and he says this piano is incredible. Maybe it is crap but I will try it first. Besides the sound, I am very interested in the action.

Kawai makes good acoustic pianos? This has to be a joke! You are a very funny man.

why else would it be copied?

Convenience, Cost, MIDI, Printing

You could use a 50 year old manual typewriter and send me your comments via snail mail. Why on earth would you want a computer keyboard?

[dawman]

Didn't have no welfare state,
Everybody pulled his weight........those were the days......

Edith Bunker loved her Kawai. Pre- Hirohito, with the newer patents and hand made..

[next to nothing]

"Kawai makes good acoustic pianos? This has to be a joke! You are a very funny man."

Dude, grow up. Do a search for kawai stage piano and see how many acoustic pianos show up. their stage pianos ARE known for good action. Don't let your ignorance out on others (again).

[braincell]

I only know the ones I have played. The action was pretty good... if you like stuck keys and no control over soft notes!

[garyb]

yes, they're all like the broken ones...

[garyb]

What you tested is 10 years old, obviously it is not the same thing. I have a friend who is the editor of a music tech magazine and he says this piano is incredible. Maybe it is crap but I will try it first. Besides the sound, I am very interested in the action.

Kawai makes good acoustic pianos? This has to be a joke! You are a very funny man.

why else would it be copied?

Convenience, Cost, MIDI, Printing

You could use a 50 year old manual typewriter and send me your comments via snail mail. Why on earth would you want a computer keyboard?

i was referring to the sound and action....for a musician, these seem to be secondary to you. you seem to like the toys more than the sound, strange...

also, i'm not convinced that people are living better lives with a computer keyboard for typing over typewriters. i'm old enough to remember the olden days before the implants and security forces...

[astroman]

my wife really loved her IBM 'Selectric'
today they'd probably call a SWAT team... hey, there's someone with a machine gun in the office over there...

cheers, Tom

[garyb]

FOR SURE.

my wife loved her Selectric too, much better than she's ever loved Word...

[wayne]

I'd sample a Selectric and assign it to keystrokes. Yeah!

[garyb]

[Shroomz~>]

It's been done Wayne... guaranteed. ... no wait, I missed the joke!!!

[kensuguro]

wait.. I don't think I've read anywhere about real strings nor real hammers. I do know that the keys position is continuously tracked to move the position of the virtual hammer in the model, so if you accelerate after the key has been depressed, that velocity is properly transferred to the hammer.

brain>> I'm not sure i understand why you're so against a real piano tho.. the sound of a well regulated grand is still quite hard to beat in a live context. I guess you mean solely in a recording context. As a performance instrument (as in emitting sound into air), a well regulated grand, or a well regulated upright is.. well, it's the real deal... Can't even be compared to any lib since after it goes through the PA system, everything sounds like crap. An un-miced medium condition upright is better for a room than a 3000GB lib through a poo-poo PA system. Seems the money and effort you save in recording a digital piano slaps you right back with the money and effort required to recreate the sound.

About Kawai pianos, from what I hear, much of the starting member (piano builders and technicians) of Yamaha were brought over from kawai. Kawai still makes top notch pianos but doesn't feel the same way as when you hear "Steinway & Sons" since their history is limited and also their presence outside of Japan is limited. Pianos are one of the many items where brand recognition and brand "comfort" is very important.. hence the insane rebranding an re-labeling.. Yamahas used to be sold under some european sounding name since Yamaha made no sense. Young Chang had a tough time (still having a tough time) too. People are scared of unknown entities, especially when they're shedding +$10k. Makes sense to me. It's funny that changing "Hailun" (chinese piano) to "Wendl & Lung" (austrian) doesn't make it a better piano all of a sudden. (though wendl & lung adds some of their own parts) I guess it's kind of the same thing with cameras too.. I remember there were a few models where a Leica was just a slightly modded Panasonic Lumix.

[astroman]

don't get me started on that one...
Leitz, Schneider and Zeiss simply licence their brand name to anyone willing to pay.
The lenses aren't even remotely comparable to the original prototypes *shudder*
My wife used to hate those analog eagle-eyes (as the Tessar lens was nicknamed in the 60s), ...get off with that f*cking cam - shows every spot on my skin I don't want people to see...

cheers, Tom

[kensuguro]

bottom line is, most users have very bad ears, and just re-branding will make it seem sound better. I mean, it's sort of like a "analogue-modeled comp" vst... matter of fact is, the difference between that, and one that isn't particularly analogue-modeled is quite small. And if someone swapped it out, it probably would fool most musicians. Particularly if you're told otherwise, and if the GUI was even swapped. That would definitely fool me.

Also, many people who perform classic music have very bad ears. Maybe better than average, but not like people who mix, or build synths, or heavily use effects. The way they perceive sound is quite limited because it's not required for them to be as discerning. (I'm sure the pros have good ears, I'm just talking regular Joe here) They do not have the vocabulary to even describe a sound because their vocabulary is mostly limited to classic terms and other more naive words. It's like a difference between how a F-1 mechanic perceives his car, versus how mom sees her mini cooper.

[dawman]

One thing I have noticed that BCell has touched on is taking some old MIDI Files or even self recorded ones and conforming them to work w/ the different velocity layers for a more dynamic playback with a good VSTi.
This is a great way to learn your app while using your ears to make a SMF come to life.
There are so many recordings of great classical Piano solos that just sound poorly recorded, which is a shame considering the performer played around 30,000 notes flawlessley, only to have the engineer having the mics poorly placed.
I am waiting for my Helpenstill Piano pic ups to arrive, and will begin recording with some FMR's and the XITE-1 to see what I can achieve, and if it doesn't capture the sound I can rent some high end mic pre and mics.
But since I only have access to my Upright my performances will be limited, but once I get the technique down I can go and rent a demo room maybe from the local Bosendorfer dealer or the University where I just signed up for classes.
One things certain though, all of us who play and love Piano are just simply searching still, and while it seems never ending, the one's who continue on this quest are the one's who will eventually succeed, be it hardware or software.
Action over analysis wins everytime....
I really hope Holger & Juergen did a good job w/ the mic pre's on the XITE-1.
That could really end up being a deciding factor for mobile recording enthusiasts once it's released. I can only imagine a VDAT recording dry and natural, that could be mastered later w/ effects. The pic ups are also easily attached to any acoustic Piano. Using the A16U for direct and the mic pre's could be a really great way to do M/S recordings also.
I will still buy the Alicia Keys VST just can so I can call her for support.... ankyu.

To all concerned ....Happy Hunting.

[braincell]

Forget VDAT recording. It's going to be an obscure bit of trivial history soon. Sconic Core went from a studio technology to Xite-1 which seems to be designed for live musicians yet it still requires a computer. They lost their focus and they put all their eggs in one basket based on what the staff wanted to own rather than what musicians need and can afford.

Kensuguro:

I must have been confused by their video which shows a photo of the inside of a real piano. I thought they said something about silver strings and hard rubber hammers. Maybe I imagined it. I can not find that page now. I am not against real pianos. I am against people who are against fake pianos. I am pro-technology.