Thinking of upgrading my keyboard - help please

[Neil B]

I'm getting frustrated with my current 48 note keyboard (Roland ED PC-180A)

With a lot of applications like GPO now using keyswitches and of course having to use octave shift keys on all synths, I'm thinking of upgrading to an 88 note keyboard.

I've got an eye on this one:
http://www.dv247.com/invt/24172/

Now it says that it's USB but has a midi out too.

1: Does anyone have any experience of this keyboard?
2: If I used the USB connection, do I have to reconfigure my Scope projects?
3: Can I simply use the midi port instead and buy the power supply unit?

I'd be grateful for any feedback

[Shroomz~>]

Hi Neil,

I haven't tried one of these, but I can tell you that the midi out port isn't for sending midi from the keyboard, it's a midi out from your computer since the keyboard acts as a 1 port USB midi interface when plugged into your computer.

Mark

[Shroomz~>]

I know it's almost double the price, but if you went for the big brother of that one you're looking at, you'd get much better value for money imo. PRO 88. It's got a hell of a lot more features on board & a top notch midi spec.

Mark

EDIT - I forgot to add that if you're a Cubase 4 user it might be worth looking at Yamaha's KX keyboard range, since they're designed to integrate well into Cubase. The KX8 isn't cheap at £390, but the KX61 looks a decent buy at £195. Never tried one of these Yamaha's though, so I can't say how good they are.

[dawman]

Neil B. read the manual of the ES88. It is a nice cheap alternative, but program changes require note on/off's and is a real hassle.

Shroomz is correct about the KS88. There are other alternatives but I have used these and they are great for lot's of real time control.
Plenty of room for keyswitching, etc.
Since keyswitches are note on/off messages, the ES88 could be a problem as the ES88 is designed to just play one sound at a time and then change your presets by note on/off also.

On the KS88 there are 3 controller sections. A, B and C.
A is the far left w/ transport controllers for MMT, MMC and MIDI.
B section is the middle where all of the knobs and buttons are.
C section is where the faders ( reversable direction also ) are and their buttons.
You might not want the faders to change as they are controlling some mixer groups, etc.
So out of the 10 presets which hold all information for 10 set ups, you simply can hit the " mute all controllers " and have only the synth knobs and buttons from the B section load, and leave the other sections untouched.

It's an incredibly underrated design IMHO. Most people don't dig deeply into it's GUI.
So you have 10 entire snapshots stored away where you can mix sections which increases the options.
For example.
I use Section B preset 1 as 3 AUX sends on 8 channels, Section B preset 2 could be the EQ's for those channels, Section B preset 3 could the 3 bands per channel of a Multiband compressor on 8 channels.

I would be happy to help you if you get one.
Also the forum moderator over @ M Audio responds within hours of pleas as many guys use this controller live and in studios.

Not many peices of gear I own I can say were the cheapest and the best, but this particular item is a cut above the rest.
They don't have pretty jpeg'.s of guys in white coats w/ clipboards and safety glasses holding up worthless fake hammer mechanisms....maybe that's why thet are so cheap.

[firubbi]

i have this m-audio 88 keys. i'll give 5 out of 10. but its very simple... nothing is there....only 3 controllers +midi sustain,vol input. usb works fine with intel dp35dp.
its so cheap at uk ..... here its $441

[Neil B]

Ooh,
thanks for the quick & comprehensive replies from you both.

Mark,
Thanks for the warning about the midi out.
This snookers my first choice probably. What I don't want to lose is my dearly beloved Kenton Control Freak, which sits nicely in my midi chain.
Re the pro 88, well the keyboard has got to sit on my new (last year) toughened glass worktops. There is JUST enough room for the 88ES but the Pro 88 is over twice as heavy - bit of a risk there methinks.

Yes, I am using Cubase 4 now and I had a look at the Yamaha just and I think the dimesions are simply wrong for the available space in my cell!

I have to admit that we did spend a lot of money last year doing the house up and a lot also went into my little hobby so I was trying to be a bit frugal this year too. The ES seemed just about the right price.

Jimmy
You must have as much spare time on your hands as I have because you always come up with such comprehensive replies.
A big thank you for all the effort you put into your reply - I really appreciate it.
The keyswitch thing is, I suppose an issue, but with samples such as GPO where the keyswitching is simply an out of range note (say C#0 changes lush strings to pizzicato) then the ES88 could work (?) if I could get the C#0 in in time before the pizzi sound should play (big change with my keyboard skills). In this respect it is still only playing one sound at a time, but I don't think that is quite what you mean.
Anyway, Mark has put me off that one a bit.

The controllers section certainly looks interesting and seems to have more features than my lowly Control Freak, but I have to admit I've put hours into programming my "freak" and it'd be a shame to put it out to pasture - hence my reason for simplicity.

Overall I suppose I should have a look at the dimensions and weight of the Yamaha ones and do a bit more investigation. I don't expect Yamaha to be light though - I remember my days when I had an SY77 and it weighed about 10 times as much as my Korg 01/W. (Guess which one the roadie used to carry )

Thanks for your offers of help too Jimmy.

Ah well, back to the drawing board for now................

[Neil B]

Hi Firubbi
I was between replies when yours came in so I missed it
Thanks for the 5/10 tips - worth bearing in mind.
Mind you my Roland one is about 3/10

[Shroomz~>]

Sorry Neil, I was wrong about the midi on the 88es, it's just that DV247 have screwed up their feature list description. The midi port does indeed send out direct for using with other ext' hardware. It also acts as a midi interface as I described, but that's a separate mode you can put it into.

I reckon the 88es should be a decent enough keyboard, but did you look at the ProKeys 88sx stage piano? It's only about 60 quid more than the 88es & you get loads more for your money in a similar size package. Same midi controller features as the 88es plus you get 7 sounds accessed via dedicated buttons: Grand Piano, Piano 2, Fender Rhodes, Wurlitzer E.P., Yamaha DX7 FM Classic E.P., Hammond B3 Percussion Organ, Clavinet. You also get sustain, sostenuto and expression pedal inputs instead of just sustain on the 88es. Just thinking that it would be really handy to have the built in piano sounds if you were taking it anywhere for a jam, session or whatever.

Here's a link -
M-Audio ProKeys 88sx - 88-Key Lightweight Stage Piano.
ProKeys 88sx @ DV247

There's a manual in pdf format in the support section of the M-audio site. Same goes for the 88es manual.

Mark

[Shroomz~>]

Other things worth noting about the ProKeys 88sx are that it's 5lbs lighter than the 88es, it has 3 velocity curves plus fixed velocity to optimize feel & according to their site it includes the SP-1 sustain pedal.

EDIT - btw, I said in the post above that the ProKeys 88sx comes in a similar size package to the 88es, but it in fact looks like the same chassis, except it's in black rather than silver. That silver paint must be heavy.

[Neil B]

Mark
I'm simply overwhelmed by your support - THANK YOU - I'll look into all of this in more detail now.

So, I can fix the velocity, say to 80, if that's what sounds best for a patch? If you remember I had a little device put together within Scope to allow me to handle velocity better - this does sound appealing.

[Neil B]

Ah,
the fixed velocity is 100, so I'll still use my handy little velocity slider device in Scope.

They look good don't they for the price, and compared to M-Audio's price list they look VERY good

[Shroomz~>]

Yeah, they look great for the money! That's why I was interested enough to look into it as much, because we've only got 2 & 4 octave keyboards here (Nord mod KB & Novation KS4) & a decent 88 key controller would be really nice. Got a Kawai K1 in storage, but it's got a couple of keys not working, so it hasn't been used in years.

I'm quite tempted to get that ProKeys 88sx myself at some point.

Mark

[Neil B]

Not quite sure where you live, but I've found that Digital Village are really good for prices and if you pick a shop and get to know them, you'll get better deals than just ordering them from their internet site. I use the Bristol shop 'cos if I want anything big my brother lives down there and he can bring it up when he visits.
I got some great deals from tehm last year.

Anyway, I waffle.

I'll have a read of the manuals and see if it will fit in with my rig. It's still the USB/Cubase/Scope project thing that's confusing me though.

[Shroomz~>]

The USB/Cubase/Scope thing isn't an issue at all though. The USB keyboard will show up in Cubase as a selectable midi input alongside the other midi inputs just as any USB midi interface will. So you select it as a midi input on a midi track & Creamware midi as the midi output on that track.. done. As ever, you'll also be able to select it simultaneously as the midi input on other tracks & send the midi elsewhere, stacking up instruments etc.

[Mary Mungo]

Try reducing the price of your purchase further by playing DV247.com off against dolphinmusic.co.uk. They are generally about the same price for items but can be persuaded to drop the price or throw in a freebie if they think you may be getting a better deal from the other

Good luck

[Neil B]

The USB/Cubase/Scope thing isn't an issue at all though. The USB keyboard will show up in Cubase as a selectable midi input alongside the other midi inputs just as any USB midi interface will. So you select it as a midi input on a midi track & Creamware midi as the midi output on that track.. done. As ever, you'll also be able to select it simultaneously as the midi input on other tracks & send the midi elsewhere, stacking up instruments etc.

Okay, ta - I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from on this.
I've read the M-Audio manuals and also had a look at the Cubase manual re midi inputs.
So, please tolerate my ignorance a bit longer.............

I'm new to Cubase 4 as well, so I just want to clarify a couple of points.

Let's say I have the 88SX.
You wrote "alongside the other midi inputs just as any USB midi interface will...." - but I'm not familiar with USB midi interfaces.
Okay. In Cubase then, I select it as a midi input - I understand that.
Now, the midi output on the 88SX is of no use to me.
I now have to think about the Kenton Control Freak.
I aasume that this becomes "stand-alone" with it's midi out to the midi in on the Scope cable whip (basically I disconnect the midi lead from my existing keyboard to the Freak).

Note & veocity (and some other data) is therefore transmitted over USB and any CC's I wish to manipulate goes via the Freak.

In Cubase then, I select for the midi channel "All Midi Inputs" ??

If I'm on the right track so far, then so good.

Now, regarding Scope. I attach a jpg of a fairly standad project that I use.
Do I need to add another midi source to the project - oops, just checked - I can't can I?
This is the bit that's confusing me as to how I can be using both keyboard and Freak in this project.

Sorry, I'm in thicko mode this week or venturing into unchartered waters!

Neil

[garyb]

usb midi doesn't go through scope, except when it comes from the sequencer.

[Neil B]

Ah,
thanks Gary - I knew there was something rolling around in the void between my ears.
Damn shame that 'cos I often use the keyboard with just Scope & no Cubase etc.
Back to the drawing board I think for a midi (not USB) keyboard.

Oh and thanks to all for tolerating my ignorance, but then you're all used to it

[Shroomz~>]

Okay. In Cubase then, I select it as a midi input - I understand that.

Yes, It'll be available in any midi input list in Cubase alongside any other available midi inputs & will either be called 'USB Audio Device' if using the standard Windows Class Driver or 'USB ProKeys 88sx In' if using the Windows Multi-Client Driver.

Now, the midi output on the 88SX is of no use to me.

No, that's not the case. You will have 2 midi outputs available for the ProKeys 88sx. They're named the same as the midi input except they're numbered 1 & 2. No.1 is for sending midi to the internal sounds of the keyboard & No.2 is for sending midi to the keyboards midi output port.

I now have to think about the Kenton Control Freak. I aasume that this becomes "stand-alone" with it's midi out to the midi in on the Scope cable whip (basically I disconnect the midi lead from my existing keyboard to the Freak).

That's right. The only other option is if you ever get a 2,4 or 8 ch midi interface, then you could obviously connect the Control Freak via that.

Note & veocity (and some other data) is therefore transmitted over USB and any CC's I wish to manipulate goes via the Freak.

Exactly!

In Cubase then, I select for the midi channel "All Midi Inputs" ??

Well, you could, but I wouldn't recommend doing that unless you literally want all midi data entering cubase to be coming into that channel. It's much better practice to use 2 separate midi tracks in cubase, one for your note data for which you'd select the USB midi input from the keyboard & a separate track for your controller data from the Freak, for which you'll select the Creamware midi input. If you want both tracks to go out to Minimax or something in Scope, then you obviously just select the same midi output for both tracks in Cubase. Doing it this way with 2 separate tracks allows you very quickly to edit like cut, copy & paste sections of either track from the main project window in Cubase without affecting the other. It's a great way to work!

Do I need to add another midi source to the project - oops, just checked - I can't can I? This is the bit that's confusing me as to how I can be using both keyboard and Freak in this project.

I've explained it above. The USB keyboard & Freak midi data can both come out to the same midi source from Cubase if you want them to be controlling the same device in Scope. You only want to having them coming out to separate sequencer midi sources in Scope if you wish to control separate Scope devices with them, like if you're controlling say a synth with the Keyboard & a different device like a second synth, mixer, effect or whatever with the Control Freak.

Sorry, I'm in thicko mode this week or venturing into unchartered waters!

No problem at all. Someone will always be around here that can help.

Mark

[Shroomz~>]

Back to the drawing board I think for a midi (not USB) keyboard.

Bugger, you mean I just typed all that shit for nothing? That's your last Neil !!