here it goes again

[next to nothing]

Well said alfonso!

[dawman]

100%.......

I use to love watching the show on Shalom TV where young Arab & Jewish kids went to summer camps together to learn each others cultures and share weeks of fun together..................I doubt it was the kids who put a stop to that.

It appears as though the powers to be do not want a peaceable solution as rounds are coming in from the North now.

[ReD_MuZe]

got a new war developing at the north... happy happy joy joy

[Shroomz~>]

I'm sure it's been anticipated/expected by Israeli leaders Assaf. There's reportedly about 400,000 Palestinian refugees in Southern Lebanon & given that approx' 1200 people were killed there in 2006, it's pretty obvious that some people there are going to be severely angered by what they're witnessing happening to other Palestinian refugees. It would be severe lack of foresight for anyone to have thought that they wouldn't unite.

The anger of the Israeli/Palestinians in IL must also be a worrying factor, but one that has surely also been calculated.

I hope it ends before it escalates any further.

[Shroomz~>]

oh, so now the CIA wasn't involved in the overthrow of the Shah?

hehe.. I didn't say that.

[ReD_MuZe]

actually shroomz, the israeli arabs, and the west bank palestinians have been very democratic in their campain to stop the war, and imo are more effective than the hizbollah in doing so.

its interesting that palestinian anger and violence is more legitimate and understandable in your eyes - or am i mistaken?

[Shroomz~>]

actually shroomz, the israeli arabs, and the west bank palestinians have been very democratic in their campain to stop the war

I wasn't implying that they're not trying to be democratic, but that judging by the levels & mood of protest against the latest IL military campaign, there's definitely a high level of mass unrest with the likelihood of outbreaks of violent protests as the situation continues to escalate.

its interesting that palestinian anger and violence is more legitimate and understandable in your eyes - or am i mistaken?

You are mistaken. I'm trying to look at the situation as objectively as possible as someone who's not on 'either side' as such & I certainly don't find the violence on either side of the dispute legitimate. Violence never solves anything except perhaps on a short term basis depending on the situation, but even when it might be deemed as necessary, the one taking violent action should remember that every single action has a potential reaction & in the case of violent action that may well ultimately mean looking over your shoulder in anticipation of the reaction. By logical reasoning, this equates to something along the lines of - For every violent action, at least an equally violent reaction should be anticipated. It becomes a big problem when the reaction is WAY out of proportion.

[ReD_MuZe]

actually shroomz, the israeli arabs, and the west bank palestinians have been very democratic in their campain to stop the war

I wasn't implying that they're not trying to be democratic, but that judging by the levels & mood of protest against the latest IL military campaign, there's definitely a high level of mass unrest with the likelihood of outbreaks of violent protests as the situation continues to escalate.

ofcourse im just saying that there are no new fronts expected from that side.

You are mistaken. I'm trying to look at the situation as objectively as possible as someone who's not on 'either side' as such & I certainly don't find the violence on either side of the dispute legitimate.

yet i hear you only talking against israeli violence, while treating the palestinian violence as something we should have expected.
while there is some truth to that, its only half the truth.

Violence never solves anything except perhaps on a short term basis depending on the situation, but even when it might be deemed as necessary, the one taking violent action should remember that every single action has a potential reaction & in the case of violent action that may well ultimately mean looking over your shoulder in anticipation of the reaction. By logical reasoning, this equates to something along the lines of - For every violent action, at least an equally violent reaction should be anticipated. It becomes a big problem when the reaction is WAY out of proportion.

i disagree here. when violence is deemed as necessary, By logical reasoning, you would use as much violence needed to stop the other side.
i think it would be worse morally if israel would have been bombing gaza just for the sake of revenge.
this one is about stopping the rockets. not revenge.

however my stand here is different. i think that the rockets could have been stopped by other means than war.

[Shroomz~>]

yet i hear you only talking against israeli violence, while treating the palestinian violence as something we should have expected.
while there is some truth to that, its only half the truth.

I'm only trying to be objective & if it seems like I'm only talking in half truths it's partially because I'm trying to bring some balance to a discussion where the IL viewpoint is already being generally covered by yourself. That's not to say that I'm taking a side here though Assaf. I will however put it to you like this.... You speak of outsiders not understanding what it's like to live in Israel, but how many Israelis would like to go and sample life as a Palestinian refugee? You're not taking into account that people all over the world can see from afar that the Palestinian people who are mostly refugees actually have a pretty raw deal. That's not to say that Israelis don't have a raw deal being so fiercely hated by their neighbors, but I genuinely think that IL's heavy handed military actions are mostly to blame for this hatred, perhaps not initially, but with every step such as the current IL military action, that becomes more & more the case. I'd add to that, that this is being designed & systematically implemented to be the case.

[next to nothing]

"i disagree here. when violence is deemed as necessary, By logical reasoning, you would use as much violence needed to stop the other side."

Exactly. And this is where i feel Israel fail. to use the force necessary. With the arsenal of high technology weapons available to Israel, the only reason to use the Shock and awe tactics utilized here is to stop the violence by planting fear in the public. "they must respect us, not their current leaders, or else there will be hell to pay for all of them". Sure, Hamas is breaking a lot of conventions launching missiles by random into Israel, noone is denying this (as far as i know). I am not trying to excuse this, but at the level of technology Israel is at by now they can easily take out their carefully picked targets in a way much more humane to the civillians. A rocket launcher outside a house full of civilians can easily be set out with a single burst of machine gun fire from a modern Israeli tank. A mortar launcher wouldnt even be a threat up close. The personnel operating the vehicle/launcher is soft targets easily disposed. Yet they choose to use the big guns, even if they have GPS data saying this is a refugee shelter.

Bombing Danish ambulances isn't self defense. Holding back aid and medicine on the border isn't self defense. Holding back journalists on the border isn't to protect the journalists. That risk is for the journalist and the employers to evaluate. This is a part of history which deserves to be documented, however ugly it might seem for either side. and to be brutally honest, i dont hink Israel would like anything better than for Hamas to shoot/capture a couple of journalists, just to prove to the world how evil they are and that their actions are just.

And this is what pisses of the people around the globe, the unnecessary pain inflicted on the civilians. Sure, one might argue Hamas have put the Palestinians in the line of fire. One might argue Israel have the right to defend themselves with violence. But just as Hamas, Israel is killing civillians and seeing it as "just cause". They will never regret harming civilians if "it works".

Sadly, it wont.

[Immanuel]

My best wishes here from Denmark.

[ReD_MuZe]

ola shroomz, i appreciate you balancing the topic, but blaming israel alone is not balanced in my eyes...
balanced is not portraying one side as and evil oppressor and the other as a naive victim.
you wont find me blaming it all on the palestinians.

there was hate long before the idf was here.
the situation of the palestinians is not just israel's fault. if you look at the history books you will see a list of countries that could be blamed for their situation as much as israel - including britain, jordan, egypt, lebanon, and syria and of-corse the palestinians themselves.

about living in gaza - you are preaching the choir. the war must end, the palestinians should have their own space to live quietly. i know how it is like to be attacked. i've been through several wars already.

live and let live is what id like to see.

for 8 years it was get bombed and let live.
now its get bombed and kill.

you can underestimate the hamas rockets as much as you like, its easy from where you sit.
i don't underestimate the gazan's suffering one bit.
unlike you i think they have some degree of control over it that is wasted on arms and weapons.
just like israel has some degree of control over it which is wasted on producing fear and hate.

this is a classic case of the chicken and the egg.

[Shroomz~>]

ola shroomz, i appreciate you balancing the topic, but blaming israel alone is not balanced in my eyes...

With all due respect Red, I'm not 'blaming Israel alone' as you put it. Balanced in your eyes is quite obviously a different balanced to what I have in mind, but that doesn't make me anti-Israeli.

balanced is not portraying one side as and evil oppressor and the other as a naive victim.

Your words, not mine..

you wont find me blaming it all on the palestinians.

Actually, I think blaming it all on the Palestinians is exactly what's happening if you listen to yourself & also consider that at least 700 Palestinians have reportedly been killed in 2 weeks of bombardment.

the situation of the palestinians is not just israel's fault. if you look at the history books you will see a list of countries that could be blamed for their situation as much as israel - including britain, jordan, egypt, lebanon, and syria and of-corse the palestinians themselves.

You forgot to add the US & France to name only 2, but I guess in this case, France can essentially be counted as Lebanon if we're going to start talking about colonialism.

about living in gaza - you are preaching the choir. the war must end, the palestinians should have their own space to live quietly.

I'd like to think that they could maybe live prosperously as well, but that doesn't seem possible & I just can't see how that could only be their own faults. Saying that Palestinian prosperity is castrated by funding 'terrorism' towards Israel doesn't wash with me at all because there's ZERO proof of them doing so. They have practically nothing & the existence of small rockets & launchers in their camp has nothing to do with the fact that they have practically nothing.

[ReD_MuZe]

shroomz re-read my posts i am against the war. it is israel's move. israel started the war and israel is to blame.
but this war was ordered by the hamas. so i can only blame israel for being stupid enough to play into the hands of the hamas in this case.

i went to demonstrate against the war on saturday, even tho on friday i got stones thrown at me in the street in jaffa - just for being israeli.
if you think i blame it only on the palestinians you are wrong. and if you think i am oblivious to the suffering of the palestinians you are wrong.

maybe you should re-read your posts and see there is no shred of criticism towards the way the hamas is conducting itself.

this is what i am referring to.

much respect

[ReD_MuZe]

Saying that Palestinian prosperity is castrated by funding 'terrorism' towards Israel doesn't wash with me at all because there's ZERO proof of them doing so.

tens of thousands of rockets, and no proper hospitals is no proof for you??
where does all the money go?
israel is transferring large sums of money to gaza all the time just to keep it afloat.
while billions of dollars are coming from saudi arabia and iran

[garyb]

hmmm, they should have better rockets, then...

[ReD_MuZe]

they do.
and also an entire underground city of caves under gaza to store them in and smuggle through.
they are saving the big guns to the end...
and there is nothing the IDF can do to stop hamas from using them imo

[ReD_MuZe]

actualy i take that back.
what i really want is 1 secular state with separation between religion and state.
Tel Aviv - Jaffa the capital.
Jerusalem / El Quds / Yerushalaim - Capital of the three religeons.

and i wouldn't mind an arab prime minister if he has my interest in heart amongst the rest.

however im in such a minority here you wouldn't believe it.
there isnt one party promoting the idea here nor in palestine....

[next to nothing]

"israel is transferring large sums of money to gaza all the time just to keep it afloat.
while billions of dollars are coming from saudi arabia and iran"

They also stopped the transfer of tax and customs receipts, worth about $50m a month since 2006. They control airspace and sea, and have blocked land borders. EU has stopped their funding, so have most of the international community. The price of a qassam rockets is about the same as a used pulsar 2 card.

"and also an entire underground city of caves under gaza to store them in and smuggle through."

Which incidently also is the only way to transfer goods and medicine because of the blockade.

[ReD_MuZe]

Which incidently also is the only way to transfer goods and medicine because of the blockade.

not true. blockade was not on medicine nor food up until the last 2 months. and even then it was on and off.
not that i am for the blockade - it is just as cruel as war, but saying the tunnels are built for goods and medicine is just lack of knowledge - and perhaps naivety.

im not saying gaza is rich, or that israel is taking good care of it. but you are missing the point here. the people here ask "why should we pay them for bombing us"?

taking a look at the west bank and fatah is a very good indication. fatah is not funded by saudia and iran anymore, yet those arabs cities are in far better condition - educationally and financially.
its not even near a perfect situation, but the differences are getting bigger and bigger.

to me fundamentalist jews, and fundamentalist muslims are the "other side".
those who kill and destroy in the name of god - should never be supported. including the hamas - and the jewish settlers alike.
i am just as mad at my gvmnt for funding hamas, as i am mad at it for funding the settlers. those people are my natural enemies, as they deny peace - and i have very little pity for them.

saying that, israel's choices and tactics in taking care of these phenomena are indeed shameful.