ReD_MuZe wrote:no sane person would want a neighbor like the hamas in its current state.
Or in any other state.
From The Hamas Charter:-
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
ns
do some deep research. Hamas is a product of US and Israeli intelligence. study "flase flag" history. the Israeli regime has much to gain from terrorizing their population. the Anglo-American Establishment has much to gain from war in the middle east, as the infamous PNAC document attests to.
funny how an actual Israeli citizen and officer in the IDF is Obama's chief of staff(Ram Emmanuel), no? funny timing for this action, right between administrations, no?
the Israeli government does NOT represent Jews, not even if many Jews think that it does...
garyb wrote:do some deep research. Hamas is a product of US and Israeli intelligence. study "flase flag" history. the Israeli regime has much to gain from terrorizing their population. the Anglo-American Establishment has much to gain from war in the middle east, as the infamous PNAC document attests to.
funny how an actual Israeli citizen and officer in the IDF is Obama's chief of staff(Ram Emmanuel), no? funny timing for this action, right between administrations, no?
the Israeli government does NOT represent Jews, not even if many Jews think that it does...
How does this relate to the quotes from Hamas charter, gary? Are you saying they are incorrect?
There would be peace within 10 years if The United States was serious about pressuring Israel. We could just cut off all funding to Israel and tell them make peace and you get your money back. They would start talks quickly after that. We have been dumping all this money into the area for so long and it is prolonging war if you ask me.
ola shroomz i'm glad you are expressing your opinion, and thats what the forum is about.
but i think your view on the matter is rather simplistic and cynical when you say we should accept being bombed aslong as it doesn't kill too many people. thats silly in my eyes.
its very easy to make things seem like evil vs. good but i live here. thats not how it is.
each of israels actions can be interpeted as defensive. none of teh hamas actions are deffensive, this is offensive strategy of jihad.
however, unlike nightscope, i think the hamas can change.
i believe in the power of knowledge, and good ideas that replicate. and i think once we start talking only then we can start replicating ideas, and enhance our "intellectual gene pool". the hamas has no chance of staying a fundamental jihad organization if it wants to join the international community, not to mention business with israel - which is the lifeblood of their economy. the have enough reason to mellow down. we just need to give them the time and space to do so. through slow talks.
i think this war will have to end in talks. and maybe thats something good that can come out of all the suffering.
and to all the US conspiracy theorists - relax you are not the center of the world.
"Funny how an actual Israeli citizen and officer in the IDF is Obama's chief of staff(Ram Emmanuel), no? funny timing for this action, right between administrations, no?"
He's a scary dude it seems. Funny how former ballet dancers turn vile. He has a double American/Israeli citizenship, but i didn't know he was an IDF officer, i know he was an IDF voulenteer on a supply base for a short period though (91-92? correct me if im wrong).
ReD_MuZe wrote:however, unlike nightscope, i think the hamas can change.
Now I didn't say that, Red. Just posted a coupla lines of the Hamas Charter.
But as you brought it up, I actually think that although Hamas might conceivably change there will always be some group calling for Israel's annihilation. It's hydra headed monster, cut one head off another pops up. Israel is number one target for all the prospective little jihadis knodding their heads in the jihadi schools learning the Koran by rote so they can be martyrs like their dead elders. One thing that will change Hamas for sure is if large numbers of their membership are killed. There's no arguing with death.
BTW, I LOVE life, it is the greatest blessing. Those immersed in a culture of death will probably get an early grave.
How very jollly!!
ns
Last edited by nightscope on Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
actualy Immanuel's political views are waaaaay to the left of israel, and right wing is worried about him ehehe.
im kinda glad that an ex israeli is going to push israel a bit more to the left eheh
i wouldn't go as far as calling him ex-israeli, he's born and partly raised in Chigago, Il (! ). He went to summer camp in Israel a couple of times after the 6-days war though.
I hope they keep up the "bomb-free periods" they had today, those are important.
the Israelis don't need or want murder. the Palestinians don't want or need murder.
serious power politics require it. those who make the decisions and inform the public don't have the public's best interests at heart. indeed, they often speak about the need to lead and mislead the public.
ReD_MuZe wrote:actualy Immanuel's political views are waaaaay to the left of israel, and right wing is worried about him ehehe.
im kinda glad that an ex israeli is going to push israel a bit more to the left eheh
the left and right are one in the same, a controlled population with controlled thinking. both are odious. both are funded by the same sources. both use the same banks. this is nothing but the old "hegelian dialectic". at the highest levels of power these things are meaningless. good old Ram's political viewpoints are for public spectacle. he is a samauri, a warrior who lives only to serve his master. his master is not a government or a man in it.
plus i'm not going to do all that typing and documenting of exact dates and names when there are plenty who have already done so.
i said FALSE FLAG! what more is there to know?
the question is, "do governments REALLY fund opposition groups to control their own, and other populations?". the answer is "yes.", but without some outside confimation, it's just my words, which are unimportant.
here's an example, the CIA's own website had an article about how the CIA got rid of the Shah of Iran by bombing buses full of school children and blaming it on the Shah. what the public sees and knows about, as a whole, is NEVER the actual story. turn off the tv.
i'm not trying to say that Hamas "operatives" is in any way pro-Israel or pro-Jew. i'm sure the rank and file see themselves as righteous soldiers, just as the used always do. there are always those with lower intelligence or a legitimate ax to grind(if you kill their family or wreck their home) who can be manipulated into behaving as the controller chooses.
garyb wrote:it's better to teach a man to fish....
plus i'm not going to do all that typing and documenting of exact dates and names when there are plenty who have already done so.
i said FALSE FLAG! what more is there to know?
the question is, "do governments REALLY fund opposition groups to control their own, and other populations?". the answer is "yes.", but without some outside confimation, it's just my words, which are unimportant.
here's an example, the CIA's own website had an article about how the CIA got rid of the Shah of Iran by bombing buses full of school children and blaming it on the Shah. what the public sees and knows about, as a whole, is NEVER the actual story. turn off the tv.
i'm not trying to say that Hamas "operatives" is in any way pro-Israel or pro-Jew. i'm sure the rank and file see themselves as righteous soldiers, just as the used always do. there are always those with lower intelligence or a legitimate ax to grind(if you kill their family or wreck their home) who can be manipulated into behaving as the controller chooses.
Gary, I would love to discuss this over a pint with you but the internet is not a very good communication medium. Short bursts of text that leave so much out and open to misinterpretation. I do appreciate governments do very, very sneaky things from time to time. Enough said.
garyb wrote:here's an example, the CIA's own website had an article about how the CIA got rid of the Shah of Iran by bombing buses full of school children and blaming it on the Shah.
mmm... I'm not really sure that I trust the Counter Intelligence Agency as a source of good misinformation.
Sometimes there is a factual, not explicit, not even conscious sometimes, collaboration when an enemy does things that in perspective are going to favor some interests...the less transparent ones. I think we all are aware that at any level of power, independently from intellectual honesty or criminal purposes, what is publicly said has the only purpose to get a consensus, while what is done has the main goal of preserving the power in the same hands. Both things cooperate but often differ. Simply put you can decide on how to answer, how to react, how to let things go. I don't know why it has been done, if it was a stupid absence of perspective and analysis under the strong pressure of the population and the fear of loosing consensus (power) or, worst, a deliberate tactic to undermine those international plans known as "Road Map", but I remember that in the moment in which the crisis for the Fatah was really bad and the confrontation with Hamas was pretty harmful for the moderates, the Israeli policy of blocking arms to the palestinian police and tightening some measures has put in serious difficulties the palestinian authority. Basically, being hard with the Fatah in that moment helped Hamas to gain the power. Now, why this happened can have 2 answers, stupidity or dishonesty. The second one is morally worst, but the first one is even more dangerous, so I don't really know what would be preferable....
Basically I think that the very big problem in that area is the very inadequate political elite, people that basically have built a career on the fear of their citizens and even if intellectually honest (rare i.m.h.o. in politicians all over the world) they simply don't have the tools to imagine a different future because their language and their role is justified by the way things are now. On the other side, a scared population is more likely to be passive and to accept the loss of its voice for the sake of safety, but there is also a loss of analysis because fear needs immediate answers.
So, the Hamas rockets are the best friends of those parts of the Israeli elites that, despite what they publicly say, hope never to come to a definition of Israel boundaries that leaves room for an independent Palestine and the bombings with all the "collateral damages" over the palestinian population are giving more and more strength to those factions that only claim the destruction of Israel...and I just ask myself what would I think as a kid of Gaza...
See, maybe nobody is conscious of that, but the extremists help each other, in a way or another, because if there was peace they probably would have to get a serious job and go to work...
In this situation the religious mindsets also bring their contribution. Each side is now pointing at the other one as the guilty one....all the debate, also between the ridiculous western political factions, is about "who started" "who is guilty" if it wasn't so dramatic it would be comical.
All that I can hope is for the new generations to get rid of their politicians and to make new political organizations and to try to have links with the youth of the other side to share what is loved by the youth all over the world. I don't see any other way...get rid of your (political) fathers and reject their ideals, identities are a trap. Young people really love to help each other.
I'm sorry if all this can sound a bit harsh and quite simplifying, but sometimes an outer perspective helps to better identify the trends and my thoughts are only inspired by love for the people living there.
