New Kyma "supercomputer"

[astroman]

...So it's effectively moot saying it *could* be done on Scope - the fact is that it *can't* be done on Scope at this time, and personally I'd be surprised if the sheer depth of sample-manipulation and additive/resynthesis that is possible in Kyma ever becomes possible on Scope (inc. X-ite). ...

weren't those points explicetely adressed in the post above ?
Such stuff (as on Kyma) doesn't exist on Scope because it is impossible, but because noone has written it.
Maybe noone had the talent, maybe noone considered it profitable...

I'm not biased in any way against Kyma, and the 'one can do it in Scope' statement isn't because I consider the latter the holy grail of pro-audio, let alone call for a Kyma clone.

Scope IS underestimated due to it's affordable price
and there IS a marketing problem to gain returns from serious investments

I absolutely agree with you about the niche market character and the (most likely) high quality of code etc...
my arguments for Scope are first of all to prevent people from pointing in a certain direction and say ...look over there... they can do it... if we had this and that and... we could, too and forget about the tremendous set of tools that exists at their hand.
According to the description, you HAVE TO invest at least 400% more time in Kyma than in a Scope system for any given result (except loading a preset... ), making it moot for many either

cheers, Tom

[darkrezin]

my arguments for Scope are first of all to prevent people from pointing in a certain direction and say ...look over there... they can do it... if we had this and that and... we could, too and forget about the tremendous set of tools that exists at their hand.

Understood (no it wasn't clear before :p). I would think it's fairly logical and obvious to look at the price of Kyma, understand what it can do, and realise why Scope doesn't do it. But I agree not everyone figures this out before they start campaigning for a new feature on a forum

The thing about Kyma is that not many people need it - beyond knowing it can make cool sounds and wanting in on it. It's for serious sound designers and people who can think about sounds more in terms of abstract maths. But then some would say the same for digital FM synths... It's definitely less immediate than calling up a patch on a DX7 though.

[braincell]

The Scope modular takes a lot of time to use.

I like the originality of the mp3 file examples on the Kyma site. Innovation is going to be more important in the future. Simply making software copies of old hardware will not be enough to satisfy the ever expanding appetite of electronic musicians for new tools. Samples are good. Reaktor is very innovative. Why can't Sonic Core do something with samples?

[darkrezin]

lol

[darkrezin]

now that I'm done lol-ing - braincell: it already exists, it's called Kyma. If you need it, buy it... pretty simple really.

[siriusbliss]

The Scope modular takes a lot of time to use.

I like the originality of the mp3 file examples on the Kyma site. Innovation is going to be more important in the future. Simply making software copies of old hardware will not be enough to satisfy the ever expanding appetite of electronic musicians for new tools. Samples are good. Reaktor is very innovative. Why can't Sonic Core do something with samples?

You mean, like update the STS5000?

Greg

[astroman]

The Scope modular takes a lot of time to use.

here's the link mentioned earlier Kyma compared to Max and Nord Mod

will not be enough to satisfy the ever expanding appetite of electronic musicians for new tools. ...Why can't Sonic Core do something with samples?

because there ARE tons of samplers (both virtual and physical)
but the customer group you refer to seems less than minimal in generating cash flow...
didn't you complain about high prices time and again yourself ?
how many people bought the Python Pro from Zarg ?
why did Hartmann file for bancrupty ?

cheers, Tom

[braincell]

I think Hartmann filed for bankruptcy because their product was too expensive. As computers become more powerful, there are more software choices available. I think it's going to be impossible for any music hardware company to stay in business.

[valis]

Then you must think the market is composed solely of bedroom producers and Dj's who spend more on their beer & thc than their music gear?

It would seem to me that they filed for bankruptcy because they were marketing an interesting and unique niche synth product that noone really needed, and even those who wanted it had no real usage aside from perhaps a few sound designers and independant composers. Then the 'software' version WAS overpriced and the attempt to give the 'value' of a joysticky dongle as incentive to not pirate it bore obvious results.

Imo there will continue to be a market for hardware as long as there are performing musicians who enjoy having a dedicated instrument, and live gigs and studios who want true performances instead of post processed attempts. Pick up any music catalogue and note how many pages are still devoted to guitars and the gear that goes with it...

[Shroomz~>]

edited - useless post, sorry.

[valis]

Kyma has a depth for sound design that isn't found in Scope's toolset, it isn't a knock against Scope's abilities in its own right. Even for those who are using the SDK or DP there are limits, just as Kyma+Capybera wouldn't be the best choice for replacing your studio console & monitor sends + rack gear (which scope can do).

[Tau]

Thank you Valis, for bringing some sense back into this thread.

I had no intention of starting a Scope vs. Kyma discussion. I am here and we are here because we use Scope, and it would be stupid to use Scope if it we didn't get what we want out of it. I am no masochist, and I use my Scope system to produce and create sounds that I enjoy. More, I'm still finding out new things to do with it, and I really appreciate the fact that so many people are getting turned on by the SDK and producing very interesting and useful devices. Like I said, I'm all in for the XITE, and I have no intention of leaving this platform, on which I am creating a palette of sounds and techniques that I wish to put to use in future songs and productions. Moreover, I have a soft spot for the S|C developers, as I can see they work out of passion and not just for the money or fame. And I keep getting harassed because I do not use PT, or Logic, and I couldn't care less. My studio is my castle. I render my audio for post production.

Now, before I invested in Scope, I was looking into Kyma as well, and I always thought it was very interesting. The company is interesting, the workflow is interesting, the sounds are interesting. But it was way too expensive and way too big for me. I had talked to some Zs about Kyma, and found out some also had an interest in that. I asked about their experience with that system, and from what I heard, there are some things that Kyma does better than Scope - and that's nothing to hold against Scope, especially considering what Scope does do! Many of us talked about the lack of sample RAM in Scope cards (and the PCI bw bottleneck for delays and reverbs), and how choosing the right chipset and mobo can make a world of difference. We help each other in getting the most of our systems and that is beautiful. Kyma is a different system, and I think we all agree that there are some things it can do much better than Scope. 1 GB of sample RAM should help in some operations. If those are worth the investiment, that's up to each one to decide. I just wanted to point out to those who might care that Kyma is now smaller, cheaper and more powerful than before. Not smaller, cheaper and more powerful than Scope. And I posted in the Off Topic, because it's not directly to do with Scope. And I posted in Z because I come here sometimes- because I do use Scope.

My only "praise" was that they announced it when it was ready to ship, not years before it was ready. And even that was just a friendly remark. Of course, I would be thrilled, not having any hands-on experience with Kyma, that some of you could help me figure out its strengths, considering that I'm already working with Scope. Saying that all that Kyma does could be done in Scope is cool. It fills me with joy. Maybe I'm thinking that Kyma does things that it really doesn't do, maybe I'm just being blind to some not so obvious features of Scope, or maybe it's just because nobody ever thought about doing such devices. It's OK - I'll try to get a dose of reality, somewhere else But remember, when I posted some time ago that my main reason to get an XITE was to be able to have more than a couple of synths ready to play in realtime, it was considered a "luxury". Which means that the thousands of Euros I already spent in Scope hardware and software , that do not allow me to do this, are not a luxury. And I wasn't even complaining (and I'm still not complaining).

I do have a Nord Modular G2, expanded, here. Better than ModIII? Don't think so. But how many times was I able to bring my ModIII sounds to band rehearsal? Zero. How much easier is it to set up than ModIII? Immensely. What's the poliphony count on the ModIII? A lot less. Can they even be compared? Yes, in terms of modules and sound. But that's it. The Nord is specifically designed to be played as a stand-alone keyboard, and programmed as a soft synth, and it excels in both counts. Plus, it weighs a lot less and makes a lot less noise than my Scope system. And it's red.

This was a long rant, but I saw this thread go in a direction I really didn't like, as many of you did, and the way this is going, it might as well be closed. Please excuse me if I'm out of line, I'll probably be in a much better mood tomorrow.

Much peace to you all,


T

[dawman]

This was a great thread IMHO.
It shows what open minds we have and we share the apprecitaion of such a grerat DSP platform that is available.
In the Rompler Room forum someone started a similar thread but I won't even reply there, as it is a forum degined to provide free advertisement for developers, so everyone there is content on trying to land the same film score using the same sounds. Hardly an open mind.
Here we discuss how me might use this product to enhance our DAW's.
Personally, I will spend the year of 2009 recuperating from my recent investments.
But we are very lucky having Scope and it's developers.
ProTools is a niche recording/VST integration platform.
Kyma is a niche sound designer's platform............
Scope...well we seem to have it all and often forget what powerdul shit we posess.
PT/SymSound do not have synths or samplers. we have a little bit of everything and rule the world of DSP synths.
I think the next few years will be great for all of us, especially if developers can concentrate on the future.
Maybe by the year 2010 we will be the platform of choice. It certainly is possible.

Here's a great hardware surface controller the Kyma X guys are using, and I must say I am envious.

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www. ... 0H7mFuv6Kw

[Tau]

OK, maybe I was out of line.

I think it's a great idea to encourage developers to find new paths for scope, and users to do more with what they have.

But it's a waste of time to try to do what cannot be done, or what can be done in a better and easier way by using other tools.

I am a hot head sometimes.

[Shroomz~>]

I don't think you were out of line Tau. This product looks like a real winner & very appealing. It's definitely got a future, that much is certain.

[braincell]

Both the Xite-1 and Kyma seems like great products. I disagree with Astro that the Xite-1 will appeal to normal working musicians. Perhaps that could be a strength of it but how will they know of this product? Scope is nearly invisible in the largest market in the world. It's the British flag on their site for the English language link. They don't like Americans and it would seem the feeling is mutual judged by sales past and present. It takes more than a great product, it takes marketing and luck. We are about to hit a huge world-wide depression. Somebody needs to pay attention to this if they are to survive and not ignore economic conditions!

[valis]

Both the Xite-1 and Kyma seems like great products. I disagree with Astro that the Xite-1 will appeal to normal working musicians. Perhaps that could be a strength of it but how will they know of this product? Scope is nearly invisible in the largest market in the world. It's the British flag on their site for the English language link. They don't like Americans and it would seem the feeling is mutual judged by sales past and present. It takes more than a great product, it takes marketing and luck. We are about to hit a huge world-wide depression. Somebody needs to pay attention to this if they are to survive and not ignore economic conditions!

Three different statements all rolled together, I think I'll do it proper and deal with them separately.

Xite-1 & "normal" musicians....we could get all bogged down on competing for definitions of "normal" (let alone "working" musicians! lol) but I can just gloss over that since I understand your meaning and actually somewhat agree. Most of the "normal" musicians I know just want something to plug an instrument into and play, or conversely are best served by Reason & a simple firewire soundcard that 'just works'.

CW/SC issues with "American" distribution has little to do with their native tounge (which is NOT uk/us english braincell) and more to do with people who aren't even present in the company anymore. Old dirty laundry doesn't really need to be aired here, but imo even when you could actually find CW cards in-stock in a guitar center, none of the sales guys had a clue what it was or how to sell it (or even what I was asking about when I asked point-blank questions). We can probably safely assume that sales revenue isn't the same without major US distribution, but the distribution landscape has been changing for a few years anyway. Europe actually seems to be just fine, PlanetZ still only represents a small slice of that market judging by the Eu sales over the years and the number of people who are present here.

The point about the world-market situation isn't wrong either, I would actually agree with you here. I have a feeling that the guys at SC are also aware, it's just that this product has been quite a few years in the making and these things are hard to predict. So now they've got it ready they'll just have to make the best out of what they've got and hope they survive. That's no different than any other business running today, myself included.

Same could be said for Kyma really.

[dawman]

I have sworn my allegiance to Scope years ago, even while development appeared to be stagnant. I thought it had the basic developments that I would need to replace a hardware stage rig and it worked.
More and more musicians with larger rigs have done the same.
Kyma X and Scope are both providing more mobility and greater power.
At the end of the day, you need them or you don't.
But both of these developements are sure to bring the home project studio guys out into the public easier, as the desire to get paid for your work while doing what you love for a living just got alot easier.
We won't know for a while if these items will sell hundreds or thousands.
Symbolic Sound shares Soniccore's marketing philosophy as they hardly advertise.
They aren't even making an appearance at NAMM, but that didn't stop them from making the Picanas. So marketing seems unnecassary and these are decisions based on past experiences, and made by very intelligent people, who are privvy to information we don't have.
Besides the guys that shop at Sam Ash and Guitar Center don't go there to buy synths IMO. The synths you see there are on a flooring plan and cost nothing to show, they just have someone show up once a month and if the item is not on display, you must write a check for it. Something they learned from the Drug cartels years ago, same model.
Word of mouth and forums like this will test the waters.
I think it's safe to assume each company has made 100 units and will decide to continue developing or be content with recuperating their R & D.
I actually thought the jpeg Symbolic Sound showed of a room full of Picanas all boxed up ready for shipping was very wise. We know they mean business.
And while the wait and see crowd hopes they both have poor sales and think they can get huge discounts by waiting it out............I wouldn't hold my breath.
When the economy is doing bad addicts change their tactics.....

[Zer]

Then you must think the market is composed solely of bedroom producers and Dj's who spend more on their beer & thc than their music gear?

It's a fact that this clients are important for the biz. You`re speaking to such a bedroom type. I' doubt that my bear is as expensive as the money I´ve already spent on gear. But yeah, I like beer a lot, but I'm a fat ugly Kraut, so that`s ok for me. No company could just relate on the big names and business producers. I know that in America such hobbies are quite seldom, because everything is based on money. In Europe it's quite different and as far as I know even in South America (just think about the tecno brega scene). But however the music industry is at the end of it`s usual business. Even former big names have to work instead living from their art. Many bands do just manage their living from their concerts today. Minor banda are playing for 200 bucks and bring their equipment. Formally high end studios suddenly feature home producers because every order is better then none an the bills have to be paid. Hard- and software companies are begging for productplacement at the non food assortment of the big discounters. So one should think twice about backbiting about hobby producers and djs. By the way - Did you notice how big the free-tek scene had become in th last 5 years? There must be a reason for that.

[valis]

I think you misunderstood me Zer? I wasn't putting myself in the class of some vaunted big-name stage performer who needs high profile synths, I happen to be firmly in the hobby/dj camp myself and am well served by the software/computers referred to. So please don't mistake my response for 'backbiting' hobbyists or even professionals that work out of their home. Oh, and fwiw I don't drink any longer (years of having free drinks grew old) but my budget for other indulgences is a lot more controlled than my gear & music purchases.

Also I happen to be an American, and if my love for music and the gear I have were motivated solely by financial realities I'd own none of this. The total sum I've poured into gear and vinyl over the years would have bought a nice LARGE house, a few cars and 2 fat little children (I happen to not have either a home or children yet, but tons of music and gear and a 14 year old Honda bought used.) It's my experience that most musicians (electronic or otherwise) here in the US aren't too dissimilar to myself, doing it for the enjoyment they gain financial realities be damned.

In any case the existence/growth of one market doesn't eliminate the other, although I'd agree with the financial realities that large studios have faced over the last decade. Yet the 'long tail' concept is debatable, which leaves room for the potential survival of 'professional' studios who adapt to the changing market (as well as performing musicians they hire.) And for live performers, some may choose a laptop & controller (or rack case as Jimmy does) but many still seem to prefer dedicated hardware synths when it comes to playing.