here it goes again

[garyb]

misinformed? no, you just agreed with me. these are new wars, they are not ancient conflicts.

did i not receive training for my 13th birthday and after, in the reform and conservative style? was i not recruited for the war as a teenager? i most certainly was, and it's a miracle i'm not on some piece of farmland ready to kill a man i don't even know. it took years to begin to find out who Herzl was and who he worked with and for, and why folks like Lord Balfour seemed so miraculously helpful.

brother, i pray for safety your and yours and all the rest over there. i pray that no more need to die over things that they personally aren't even involved with. i pray that the Mark of Moloch is removed from the middle east, but i'm not holding my breath. Moloch has been Melech for several thousand years in the middle east...

[siriusbliss]

greg, your maps only show empires, not anything related to the current war.
this is more about the bible vs the koran.

It's not my map, and nowadays Isreal is very much part of a global empire, and if you look closely at the trends, you will see parallels to present day.
Unfortunately we know how long empires last, and how fast they can expire.
I think Isreal is being sabotaged/sacrificed in order to force us to believe that just about everyone everywhere is an enemy.

Gotta dump globalistic Zionists that have hijacked otherwise peaceful people and cloak themselves and their operations behind 'anti-semitism', or 'anti-Vatican', etc.. (Being anti-Isreali policies is NOT being anti-semetic).

<I CAN speak out against the Vatican - but that's for another day...>

Focus on peace.

Greg

[garyb]

this is more about the bible vs the koran.

impossible. the Koran states that the Bible is an authentic text. the Koran has the same heroes as the Bible. the Koran is the alleged speeches made by Mohammed, out of order given and out of context(although there is commentary which explains the actual circumstance for each speech for those who care). in it Mohammed chastizes the Arabs for losing their Abrahamic heritage for the Paganism of the other peoples of the middle east, in the same way that biblical prophets chastized the Israelites and when all trbes were scattered but two, the Judaens and Benjamites. Jews and Arabs are natural allies according to the Koran, and in fact, the only bad words towards Jews in the Koran speak about a SPECIFIC group of Jews who were working with the folks trying to eliminate what was then a small band of a few families who called themselves Muslim. all the Muslim "jew hate" is stirred up by those who quote out of context to the ignorant.

Bible vs. Koran is for the uninformed masses that will die. most who claim Judaism, Christianity or Islam have not actually investigated any of these books, they only repeat what the Rabbi, Imam, Minister or Priest tell them about the books.

[ReD_MuZe]

Misinformed - big-time.
you conspiracy theorists are subjects of other peoples agendas even more than me! and i live in israel.

if you want some dose of reality, you are welcome to visit IL. i have a spare bed.

[Shroomz~>]

Assaf, are there any Israeli news groups/agencies that are actually showing the extent of the death & destruction in Gaza? Just wondering, because the major news networks don't seem to be showing much more than the occasional bombed building & certainly aren't putting any reasonable amount of time or effort into covering the apparently insignificant issue of all the dead & wounded Gaza civilians. Obviously close coverage of the dead & wounded isn't allowed. Only nice clean innocent reporting please people!!!

I don't think I'm being out of order to suggest that there seems to be somewhat of a pro-IL media bias on this issue.

[ReD_MuZe]

shroomz, you are correct.

any western government would support israel, in order to maintain its own right to defend itself in the future.
Make no mistake, israel is defending itself because it must.

however, at this age and are, the centralized media is playing less and less role. we all know the extent of the destruction.
el jasira report 50 of the killed were unarmed civilians - which leaves 400 armed people in the equasion.

You have to remember that people here are living under constant rocket bombardments, and obviously care more about their lives and their families lives than for the ones who bombard them.

as opposed to the hamas and its followers, when we hear a death toll on the other side, we don't go dancing in the streets giving out candy. People here are scared and they want the situation resolved ASAP. after 8 years of constant fear, and 30 years in peace attempts, people have had enough.

the consensus to this war is very simple - nobody has a good answer to the question "what would you do in our shoes?".
i know war is the wrong answer, but as far as the people here are concerned - unless i have a better idea, all i say is worthless. and they have a point unfort.

[Shroomz~>]

I see what you're saying Assaf, but I can't understand the logic in using such brutal force in the name of defense. I feel the same about the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan & that anyone pushing the spin that those wars are in the name of defense is either a liar or a fool. I can't see how that can ever bring peace. Even if Israel kill every last enemy in Gaza (which would seem impossible barring the slaughter of every last person), there can still never be peace there. Unfortunately it seems like it's too late now for peace & that there can only be constant war for Israel. I guess I'm just stating the obvious though..

[ReD_MuZe]

ola shroomz ur preaching to the choir

bare in mind tho that this is not iraq, we are not conducting ourselfs like the USA, this is 1 hours drive from my home in tel aviv. people here are living under daily fire for 8 years! i dont think the attack is disproportionate. i just think it wont resolve anything.

[Shroomz~>]

Red, maybe what's needed out there is a 'Buy Unpopulated Land, Not Weapons' campaign. Nah, that would never wash..

[Shroomz~>]

As the 37th most densely populated country in the world, Israel has half the population density per square km than the Palestinian territories which are the 13th most densely populated 'country' in the world. 325 people per km compared to 667 people per km. Russia on the other hand, has only 8.4 people per km & is one of the least densely populated countries in the world @ 220th from a total 241 countries. Countries such as Australia & Canada only have about 2-3 people per square km.

The answer to some sort of real peace from attacks seems logical to me.

[MikeRaphone]

Hmm, let me see-
Peace was at hand not so long ago by the late great Jicak Rabin, in waltzed religious maniac(a Jew) and shot him to death. Deux points. process went down the drain. Palestinians went berzerk and fought their way out of Gaza strip with stones and slings. That didn't go so well, except for the fact that they lost some more civilian rights, and a bunch of them got killed by "plastic bullets", oh well. Then they tried to bomb the shit out of Il public transportation and techno clubs(wait, who invented bombing terror as a means of political struggle?)- and
tatatatam- couple of million people got deprived of any civil rights, cut off basic human necessities and put behind a wall. Mmmm, as by a miracle the most radical looney tunes organization gains power and becomes a major political player- they advance from slings to fireworks and seriously endanger nearby orange fields of a friendly neighboring country. Oh yeah, hysterically screaming bearded men in black coats and funny hats was a great TV spectacle. Congrats. I think it's a series of little wonders that will lead to the great Kaboom... and then everybody will just say- oh, we didn't know, we just followed the orders.
Sorry for being blunt,

Peace

BTW , i think every single loss of human life is tragic and shouldn't happen...

[ReD_MuZe]

Red, maybe what's needed out there is a 'Buy Unpopulated Land, Not Weapons' campaign. Nah, that would never wash..

this is exactly what started the whole conflict from the begining in 1917

This is not about over-population. its about control over land.

mike - totaly agree. violence is not the answer. just leads everybody to the doom

[siriusbliss]

I'm curious - Does anyone know the real numbers of Israeli/Palestinian/Hamas deaths from rocket attacks over the past, say 10 years? Too many biased media reports here to know for sure, and other international media resources don't seem to keep track.

Is it proportional? And is it yet obvious to anyone that it's a minority that is not ever going to resolve anything?

Seems one sided from here with US$40bil given to Israel annually (from what I've read). That buys a lot of military power.

Yes, control of land comes control of food/water and other resources that sustain life.


Greg

[garyb]

the leaders of the Israeli government are monsters.

Hamas and their ilk are monsters.

believing the rhetoric on either side is monstrous.


too bad for those who live there, how horrible...

[ReD_MuZe]

Hey Greg,

first of all i think is very cynical to count deaths, especially when comparing the hamas - which prefers to invest its money in weapons instead of hospitals, shelters and schools. and that sends UN representatives to roofs of buildings IDF has announced it is going to bomb.

do you count civilians? or is every human - even one with blood on his hands - equal?

is targeting civilians on a daily basis for 8 years tolerable by any other nation? who should pay the price for this?

if you quantify violence, then yes. i think its proportional. violence is worse for those who are alive. i don't take the bus because i'm scared - not from accidents, but from a suicide bomber. i know too many people injured or killed in such attacks after-which get a gaza - style street party.

however, this kind of calculus is petty and immature. violence is bad period. if people would stop this calculus - perhaps some decent perspective would come to light.

indeed israel is heavily funded by the USA - ( i know of 10bil annually ) but israel is providing IP and tech for this money, and at the end of the day - you get what you pay for. Russia is now trying to strike some deals with israel regarding pilotless aircrafts. that deal alone is about 5bil a year. Hamas is funded by Iran and ultra rich arab sheiks. so i guess who gets funded more is not the only issue. its also a matter of what you do with the money, and how functional is the government.

we don't have food resource problems. and water problems is easily fixable. sustaining life? i think its more about controlling life.

i think the only way to carry on is dismiss history as a big mistake - and make 1 secular country for both nations.
basically no one has a right to this land more than the other. by accounts from early 1900's there were as many jews and Christians here as arabs. there was no "palestinian people" this is a term created in the 60's. gaza was supposed to be part of egypt and the west bank part of jordan. after the 6 days war - they didn't want those territories back - and they knew exactly why! even now egypt wants nothing to do with the palis. alot of the "palis" here are arabs that came here during the 30's and 50's just like the jews - to reclaim muslim land. and thats even funnier when you consider that we are here because of some ridicules fairy-tail book that doesn't even say we can claim the land. all these plus the english who made a mess and left the country in utter chaos in 46', and the europeans and arab nations prosecuting jews in the 30's till the 50's. so just like hamas is the result of israel, israel is the result of europe and the entire world. a stupid shameful history, that deserves to be dismissed as shear stupidity. a good lesson in what not to do.

[ReD_MuZe]

the leaders of the Israeli government are monsters.
Hamas and their ilk are monsters.
believing the rhetoric on either side is monstrous.
too bad for those who live there, how horrible...

israeli government is doing now exactly what the people want. and the hamas is not comparable to our government. not by a longshot.
I dont think any of the sides are monsters.
merely misguided.
i don't believe in evil.

i tried living in other places (2 years in Cali and 1 year in the Netherlands)
this is our only home.
and i love it.

[siriusbliss]

Hey Greg,

first of all i think is very cynical to count deaths, especially when comparing the hamas - which prefers to invest its money in weapons instead of hospitals, shelters and schools. and that sends UN representatives to roofs of buildings IDF has announced it is going to bomb.

do you count civilians? or is every human - even one with blood on his hands - equal?

is targeting civilians on a daily basis for 8 years tolerable by any other nation? who should pay the price for this?

if you quantify violence, then yes. i think its proportional. violence is worse for those who are alive. i don't take the bus because i'm scared - not from accidents, but from a suicide bomber. i know too many people injured or killed in such attacks after-which get a gaza - style street party.

however, this kind of calculus is petty and immature. violence is bad period. if people would stop this calculus - perhaps some decent perspective would come to light.

indeed israel is heavily funded by the USA - ( i know of 10bil annually ) but israel is providing IP and tech for this money, and at the end of the day - you get what you pay for. Russia is now trying to strike some deals with israel regarding pilotless aircrafts. that deal alone is about 5bil a year. Hamas is funded by Iran and ultra rich arab sheiks. so i guess who gets funded more is not the only issue. its also a matter of what you do with the money, and how functional is the government.

we don't have food resource problems. and water problems is easily fixable. sustaining life? i think its more about controlling life.

i think the only way to carry on is dismiss history as a big mistake - and make 1 secular country for both nations.
basically no one has a right to this land more than the other. by accounts from early 1900's there were as many jews and Christians here as arabs. there was no "palestinian people" this is a term created in the 60's. gaza was supposed to be part of egypt and the west bank part of jordan. after the 6 days war - they didn't want those territories back - and they knew exactly why! even now egypt wants nothing to do with the palis. alot of the "palis" here are arabs that came here during the 30's and 50's just like the jews - to reclaim muslim land. and thats even funnier when you consider that we are here because of some ridicules fairy-tail book that doesn't even say we can claim the land. all these plus the english who made a mess and left the country in utter chaos in 46', and the europeans and arab nations prosecuting jews in the 30's till the 50's. so just like hamas is the result of israel, israel is the result of europe and the entire world. a stupid shameful history, that deserves to be dismissed as shear stupidity. a good lesson in what not to do.

What I was trying to say, is how callous to count deaths on any side of the conflict, since it doesn't resolve anything.

I was merely curious as to who's reporting what/how many were killed in recent attacks from different viewpoints, since it's all unfortunately a moot point.

Greg

[garyb]

Red, i agree with your entire analysis, except for the part that ignores who your masters are, who your government works for, who funded the Sheiks and gave them the right to run the oil game and etc.

do a little research on the six sided star and the house of Rothschild. there's nothing Jewish about that symbol. everybody knows(but they forget) that the symbol of the house of Israel is the MENORAH. if the menorah doesn't fly over your land, representing the tribe in the same way that the British flag and the Austrian flag do, then someone else other than the tribe who claims the land MUST be in charge.

your homeland? ok, i grant you that. it's mine, too, but it's administered by bad men, just like everywhere else. i'm deeply, truly sorry that they lob rockets at you, or even threaten you in this way! i know that you don't deserve it! i know that those poor people across the wall "have it coming to them", but from the story that they know(learned as children in the 40's, 50's and on), they're the persecuted ones. how can the ignorant and downtrodden be expected to act? obviously, SOMEBODY would be happy if both sides annhilated each other.

BOTH SIDES ARE BEING MANIPULATED BY MONSTERS. if you don't BELIEVE in evil, you should be able to open your front door and view it with your own eyes. evil is when GOOD people on both sides start wishing for murder. if it's truly gone too far, and then ALL of you people there are worthy of distruction for being so violent and twisted, unable to see reason. i won't believe that it's come to this point, although there are many cabalists who don't think the good times and paradise of the Messiah can come until Hell is FULLY realized on earth, when sickness, destruction, war, murder, rape, disease, hunger, fear, hatred and death are all that people know. there are "good" people working feverishly and scientifically towards that end and sometimes it seems they have nearly succeeded. the thing is, this is a trap, this love of suicide. evil doesn't require your belief.

what's REALLY funny, is that these problems are based on a phony idea, the idea of the Jewish State. is there Jewish law or not? how can the state be both secular AND biblical/talmudic(as if the Talmud is Hebrew, at best it's Jewish, not Judean, just Jewish)? how can "jewish" not be racial, or at least tribal, if there's a homeland, and yet the Zionists who educated me as a young teen went out of their way to express that "jewish" is just a religion?(because so many top Zionists aren't even Jewish) when many early Zionists would have been just as happy with South America as the middle east(according to Graetz and many others), and even had workable schemes in motion to achieve this prior to ww2? this allows the "Arabs" to claim that all that Israel is, is European Colonialism. when i see all these Russians everywhere i start to believe it myself...

Red, you MUST defend your home. all men must, but i'm sorry.....

[ReD_MuZe]

believe what u like

we don't have space for conspiracies here. every citizen knows someone from the government , someone top ranking in the army. its like a little swamp where information is impossible to hide.

a quick visit here will show you that people on both sides have a right to be angry at each other. problem is that they are all clueless about how to resolve it.

[ReD_MuZe]

greg - i usually simple maths and interpolate between the hamas counters and the israeli counters. thats more than enough accuracy for me.