here it goes again

[garyb]

no, Israeli intelligence and military, while very competitive with Great Britain and the US, are still working more or less in concert with GB and the US. remember, it was the British and many non-jewish Zionists who made Israel as we know it today. as always, it is only the little guys on both sides who NEVER wanted to fight, who will suffer and die over this.

[Neutron]

No peace till there is a cure for religion.

[garyb]

yes, this is NOT a problem of religion.

regardless of what you have been told, there is a specific passage in the Koran that says directly "Moslems, Christians, Jews and Sabeans(Ethiopian Orthodox)" all are blessed and will "go to heaven".

all the rest is politics and ignorance implemented by evil rulers and bad leaders.

the current conflicts in the middle east were started by the British, and maintained by what is known as the "Anglo-American establishment" by Carrol Quigley.

[braincell]

Israel is mostly secular. The problem is poverty of the Palestinians and Arabs in the region. Of course they would hate Israel since their land was taken away etc. and Israel is prosperous so there is a lot of resentment.

Religion could play a role in future shock I believe. Religion is sometimes a tool to influence radicals. We see the same thing here in the USA with the evangelicals. I believe that the cultural battle between the religious and the secular atheists will be long and hard fought but in the end reason will prevail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock

[nightscope]

there is a specific passage in the Koran that says directly "Moslems, Christians, Jews and Sabeans(Ethiopian Orthodox)" all are blessed and will "go to heaven".

Erm, what about the Brits?. Does it say anything about the Brits?

Hey, Red, take care, mate. Sincerely.

ns

[Zer]

there will never be piece, because both sides love it to death to kill each other and it has become tradition. The agenda is surely based on something different, but none cares, and those outsiders who do are hated twice and will die the first time, because that`s the plan and it will do.

[ReD_MuZe]

Ola guys,
i'm safe, i'm in tel aviv. there have been some riots in jaffa where i live, but it was contained.

Fist of all to whomever was not following the news closely-
Israel has been bombarded with missiles from the gaza strip for 3 years now. in the past 6 months there was supposed to be a calm, but rockets still came, disrupting the lives of 250,000 people living in southern israel, to a point of paralyzation. people were living in the bomb shelters for the past 6 months. This attack has come after numerous warnings from the israeli government, and MAJOR public pressure to do something about the bombardments.

No sane country would let the lives of about a 10th of the population spiral out of control for 6 months without reacting, but israel did just that.

This IS a war of religion, it is called jihad. and thats the business of the Hamas, which is an extreme fundamental muslim regime. So far, the arab countries want nothing to do with the Hamas, and even the Fatah - the government at the west bank primarily blamed the Hamas for this conflict, which is a first!

and for the cynical people counting death tolls, im not sure how to react to this - perhaps we should have had some more people killed on our side? maybe go out of the bomb shelters and let rockets that destroy our homes kill us as well?

Mind you, that this bombing was known in advanced, and was practicaly "ordered" by the hamas. They knew it was coming and they knew where and when, they could have easily prevented it, but they chose to manufacture more shahids instead.

Hamas reports 230 killed - 15 unarmed civilians amongst them.

The stupid thing is that israel's government just played into their hands, and you will see this will play to the Hamas hands - they will finish the war bigger and stronger. and we will have 3 countries here: Israel, Palestine, and Hamastan.

Fatah claim that the Hamas is holding 1.3 million palis as hostages. and by their strategy, it surely seems that way.

This war is EXACTLY what the hamas want (and also some extremists here no doubt), and that is why they have won it before it has even started.

Demonstrating against the war didnt help of course, we just made allot of people on the street mad at us. so its not the government, its all of the israeli people dancing to the flute of the hamas

[garyb]

Hamas gets it's funding how?
that's right, western intelligence agencies.
the "Islamic Brotherhood" which is at the basis of ALL "fundementalist Islam", was originally funded by Mr. Hitler, and by the USA after the war.
yes, the rabbit hole is truly deep.

[braincell]

While I am sure Israel was provoked, I can't say I agree that violence is the correct answer to the problem. I am one of the few people in this world who is a true pacifist. Governments often do not act in the best interest of the citizens and they over-react. We would like to live in peace of course but every day in my country there are acts of violence by our citizens against our own citizens. For some reason this is accepted and less of a fear than the prospect of an attack from another nation. This is because we are xenophobic.

If the worst thing that can happen is to be killed before nature kills you, then there are far more cost effective ways to fight death other than these conventional battles with bombs and bullets.

What I am saying is that we say we fear being killed but that is not what we truly fear the most. We are afraid of being killed by foreigners more. This makes no sense to me. Death is a fear for me but I care not who kills me.

[garyb]

problem+reaction=solution

[ReD_MuZe]

While I am sure Israel was provoked, I can't say I agree that violence is the correct answer to the problem. I am one of the few people in this world who is a true pacifist. Governments often do not act in the best interest of the citizens and they over-react. We would like to live in peace of course but every day in my country there are acts of violence by our citizens against our own citizens. For some reason this is accepted and less of a fear than the prospect of an attack from another nation. This is because we are xenophobic.

If the worst thing that can happen is to be killed before nature kills you, then there are far more cost effective ways to fight death other than these conventional battles with bombs and bullets.

What I am saying is that we say we fear being killed but that is not what we truly fear the most. We are afraid of being killed by foreigners more. This makes no sense to me. Death is a fear for me but I care not who kills me.

agreed.
a simple game of tit for tat would have been much more effective in this case, and would have cost no lives.

[darkrezin]

Have been reading the news in despair.

Take care Assaf.

[Shroomz~>]

Incredible and very sad indeed. I find it impossible to believe that the real decision makers for Israel don't know that bombing Gaza in this way can only possibly serve to increase hatred towards Israel from the Palestinians and it's other neighbors, so I can only deduce that that's exactly what they want despite what the official spin is. I wouldn't find it so hard to stomach if the IDF sent in a series of special forces incursions on the ground to tackle the sources of the rocket attacks, but as with what happened in Lebanon, a bombing campaign is simply inhuman since the sheer number of civilian casualties as a result of such action are totally unacceptable. It's not acceptable imo to deal with this situation in such a way that you hold the lives of your own well armed forces in higher regard than innocent civilians by bombing the hell out of the areas you plan to invade on the ground. Sadly though, it's looking like as usual the IDF plan to shatter & crush the area to be invaded including many of it's civilians before risking sending in any ground troops. Israel can't possibly continue in the same manner unless it actually wishes an all out war with all of it's neighbors. Peace deals & ceasefires are surely harder to imagine if you use excessive force to make your point? Or am I missing something?

Mark

[ReD_MuZe]

I agree that violence is not the answer, but if you think IDF is targeting civilians then you have fallen to cheap propeganda. I know the people that serve in the army, they are heavily prosecuted for the smallest mistakes om targeting

[Shroomz~>]

I'm not saying they're targeting civilians Assaf, but civilians are dying in serious numbers as they have in the past when the IDF have done this type of thing. 4/5 hours ago, the latest figures of civilian casualties being reported by the UN in Gaza was 57 civilian people dead and a lot more injured. Those figures weren't the total at that point either, since the rubble of the bombed buildings hasn't been cleared to reveal what lies beneath. I agree that there's propaganda at play as well, but it's not only coming from one side of the dispute.

[Zer]

...and so they will bomb each other forever...only hardliners will survive. That reminds me of George Orwell: "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stampin' on a human face, everyime forever."

[Zer]

and it will go on forever...those who don`t want it will get defeated. The mass is either supporting or at least tolerating that way. So we`ll have 60 years of war in the future. Another good times for h&k and youtube.

[ReD_MuZe]

U know guys, i'm totally against the war. any war. but since i'm here in il, i get confronted with the following question all of the time:
"what do you think we should do to prevent hamas from terrorizing us?"

well my usual cynical answer is "build them schools"

but honestly i don't know.

what do you do with such people who call for your death, who swore to destroy your home even if its the last thing they do? how do you deal with people would would give their lives to cause you suffering? one could claim we are responsible for creating this beast, and that is partially right (it is happening all over the world regardless of israel apparently - russia, pakistan, somalia, sudan, and counting...) but it still doesn't give an answer.

[Zer]

Make minority majority, but that will take time and very reproductive people.

You can`t change people. They will only change by suffer and force, nothing else.

If the majority of people is bad for you get out there, if you can afford it. Nothing and none will aid you in this process, regardless which side you are on. Most people just like it to pin you or stick a knife in the back of you. They can´t help it. It`s a mixture of their genoms, their sexual affinity, their environment and their minds. You simply can`t help it. But its up to you to make a change possible by just appealing on their intellect. If there`s none, forget it. Schools won`t help it, when they can`t accept a change. I'm really something totally different than an intelectual, but I´ve instinct and have gone from middle class through down under. I´ve seen so many humans and how they react and there are always some goodhearted, but you'll never know for sure who you are currently dealing with, independet from the sight of your view. There`s nothing to stop someone who wants to drop a bomb, because it's his intention of life, or he thinks it is. Their leaders and the economy which is supporting them have to be counted and to be memorized in every single word and every single action.

[garyb]

Palestinians really don't want to die and bomb and be bombed either. death is the best method of control.

Red- your response is an excellent one, along with allowing access to water and economic developement. it's surely best to make friends and allies.