64 Bit Scope Drivers

[braincell]

So I am building a new computer. I guess it would be stupid to use Vista 64 bit because there are no 64 bit drivers for my Scope cards. That kind of sucks but oh well. I think Cubase 4 64 bit is still in Beta anyway. The current Scope drivers work with Vista right? I wonder if I should be using two computers, the old one with Scope cards connected via ADAT and BNC Wordclock for mixing purposes. That sounds like a more complicated a noisy setup than I would like though and it would require me to buy another card with ADAT and Wordclock, probably not a cheap thing to find.

[Shroomz~>]

I wouldn't recommend to anyone to move to a 64-bit OS yet, unless it's for gaming or high end 3D animation/film production. In the audio world, 32-bit OS's are still outperforming 64-bit ones.

[braincell]

Fair enough. I was considering a 64 bit Firewire card for audio. That would still render my Scope cards obsolete though. The problem is, if I don't go 64 but now, I probably won't get around to it until my next computer which could be years away. I need to look into Cubase 64 bit and see how stable it is first. What do you think of this MOBO?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813128332

It has more PCIe slots which I think is a good idea for the future.

I have been using the Vienna Symphony Library a lot lately and they have a 64 bit version. Having 8 gigs of RAM would be the most significant reason for me to go 64 bit. As Scope does not use any or much RAM, Sonic Core may think they don't need 64 bit drivers. This would be a mistake in my opinion. It's the walled garden mentality.

[dawman]

I know of a dual boot DAW where the chap uses the entire VSL product line w/ 8GB's of cheap DDR2-800 for Orchestral mock-ups. Sonar is his choice of host and 64bit Bidule during his mock ups. RME drivers work fine for that, but I am sure the SC drivers when available next year would be a big help for you. I will be recording w/ that DAW next month if you want to wait and see how the stuff works in 64bit.

I was going to go w/ XP64 also but decided when that time comes I will simply add a Receptor that runs a Linux based O.S. in 32bit if I need to increase my RAM footprint.
There's too many bugs that need to be addressed in most apps. for me to jump into their 64bit nightmare.

I am very interested to see how Scope cards work on 64bit though.

[kensuguro]

ah, just had the same dilemma yesterday while doing a clean vista install on my tablet. Which unfortunately, I couldn't sell off. Strangely, the tablet is much more stable after a clean re-install.

So 32bit it is then. I only need to run kontakt on the tablet so I was thinking 64bit may be out or in the works.. decided it's a drag if I wanted to add any other stuff later on which either: was a homebrew plugin that will never get ported to 64bit, or is so already so old, it's pretty much deprecated and will never be ported to 64bit.

I tried 64bit ubuntu studio a while back. I couldn't get wifi to work, but everything else OS related was fine. All except the audio apps.. they were all still 32 bit at the time. I'm sure they will be ported to 64 bit at some point, but knowing how the show goes down in linux land, that'll probably take a while.

What will audio apps gain from 64bit pipeline anyway? I haven't read about it much, but aside from getting more ram access, are there any ground breaking benefits?

[garyb]

I haven't read about it much, but aside from getting more ram access, are there any ground breaking benefits?

aside from more ram access? no, not at the moment, except in the addled minds at cakewalk....

[ReD_MuZe]

OSX is 64bits a long time now and it outperforms any windows station (unfortunately).
i recommend having yourself prepped hardware-wise for 64bit .

64 bits has much more resolution than 32 bits and this alone is worth in sound improvement!

it does not really improve recording quality but it will improve filters and oscillators, where coefficients precision is critical to sound.

you can do 64bit calculations on 32 bit systems, problem is that it takes about 3-4 times slower.

[dawman]

We Are All Prepared To Go 64bit............Just As We Are Born Knowing Nothing But Life.

Han...Enter The Dragon, 1972.

[ReD_MuZe]

yes, there is no need to use 64 bit everywhere.
people ask about a software if its 64 bits, but thats just the wrong question...

when you write software you can use practically any bit-depth you choose. the difference is if the OS itself supports running double precision code (64bit) without splitting it into 32bit words.

graphics can benefit allot of speed from 64 bit when it comes to convolution and interpolation, but thats only if the OS supports it.

asking if a software supports 64 bit or 32bit will give you allot of answers, ranging from the content of the code itself, its usage of drivers, and the compilation process.

but then again, after all this 64bit praise, we DO have wonderful sounding stuff at even 16 bit, and as long as one can make music on his pc and have fun, does it really matter if he has 32bit fun or 64bit fun?

[siriusbliss]

Fair enough. I was considering a 64 bit Firewire card for audio. That would still render my Scope cards obsolete though. The problem is, if I don't go 64 but now, I probably won't get around to it until my next computer which could be years away. I need to look into Cubase 64 bit and see how stable it is first. What do you think of this MOBO?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813128332

It has more PCIe slots which I think is a good idea for the future.

I have been using the Vienna Symphony Library a lot lately and they have a 64 bit version. Having 8 gigs of RAM would be the most significant reason for me to go 64 bit. As Scope does not use any or much RAM, Sonic Core may think they don't need 64 bit drivers. This would be a mistake in my opinion. It's the walled garden mentality.

I would presume the Scopesters would be considering 64bit anyways in order to get more filter processing (etc.) overhead - but that's my assumption. It's also still a marketing 'carrot' IMO for ongoing future development of platforms (gotta keep that tech. economy moving, ya know?)

I would recommend a RME PCIe card on the new 64-bit computer wired over to your existing Scope system for mixdown, etc., and then route back to your 64-bit environment for <ahem> mixdown in Cubase - if that's possible (I do this now with Samplitude).

From what I've read re: 64-bit, is that it doesn't really benefit the audio itself, but rather helps with all the extra processing overhead for filters, EQ's, reverbs, etc. that supposedly require all this extra horsepower.

Greg

[ReD_MuZe]

From what I've read re: 64-bit, is that it doesn't really benefit the audio itself, but rather helps with all the extra processing overhead for filters, EQ's, reverbs, etc. that supposedly require all this extra horsepower.

Greg

if you code in 64bit on a 32bit OS then it doesnt matter to the sound it matters to the speed indeed (the case with allot of software out there).

but if you code in 32bits, well there is a VERY big difference in sound quality for many filters and oscs.

this is a simple filter code:
out=out*freq+in*(1-freq);

or in scope language:
in->XfadeL
Xfadeout->feedback->XfadeR
and control the xfade for frequency.

as you see the more feedback there is in the loop the less input the filter gets - ie less resolution.
more poles = more bit crushing at low frequencies, and more resonance, gives even more bit crushing...
and this is not an extreme case of data loss, its just one thats easier to understand...

hope this clarifies some 64bit sound myths....

[siriusbliss]

yes, I see the 'myths'.

Greg

[dawman]

Is it safe to assume that the OSX version of Flexor's new emergence will take advantage of single word 64bit processing?
I would only need a small nudge to add a Mac ProBook to my rig.
My Bassist has been using my laptop since I got it for lyric sheets, production and recordiing chores and offered to buy it for what I paid for it.
As much as I despise Apple they do design their O.S.'s w/ audio in mind where as M$ is not even listening to our pleas.
If I hear of any advantages using OSX w/XITE-1 over the XP/Vista/Windose 7 stuff, I'll drop it like a hot potatoe.
Especially if Flexor's rebirth benefits from it.

[ReD_MuZe]

now most software does its signal path in 64 bits. even ones that run on 32bits.
and yes also flexor runs on 64bits.
but it will also run on a 32bit windows OS.
it just means that it will take more cpu power from 32bit os systems to combine two 32bits to 1 64.

64 based software has been around LONG before any 64bit chip was out.

atm it does seem that flexor likes the mac better than windows in tearms of proccessing power, but then again... this is not based on any solid benchmark data, and flexor hasn't been optimized yet.

osx uses cocoa for the user interface which is 64 bits, and has faster vector graphics leaving room for dsp, it also handles double precision faster obviously.

however, we have yet to compile the linux version, and i have a feeling it will be the fastest version of the three

if you get a macbook pro, dont get the new model, get one model before that. its almost the same specs, but it also has firewire 400, and doesn't break as easily.

however i warn you, once you get a mac, you will loose the little faith you have in OS manufacturers. in some bizarre way, windows makes OSX seem stupid just as much as OSX makes windows seem stupid. they highlight the stupidity of each other, leaving you wishing someone would combine the good things of both into one decent product
__________________________________
some of you may already know that, but scope actually calculates most atoms internally with 40bit float precision (for more headroom and more precision on quiet signals), altho external connections are 32bit integer.
there are many data types, and only the programer selects which to use, each selection has massive implications on the algorithm, and some algorithms have hundreds or even thousands of such selections. even tho bit depth can change the sound of the algorithm, we need to remember that it all comes up to the sound. and i know some nifty 8 bit synths that sound awesome! (and also too many 64bit based plugins that sound like *****)

so if you ask whats better in terms of technology, yes, articles can be written and no solid answer can be given
if you ask whats better in terms of making music, i say - user your ears, and your fingers that should suffice.

[braincell]

These posts are all interesting and true but the fact of the matter is that Cubase does run better with more RAM and while Red is is true you can do great stuff with 4 gigs of RAM, the Vienna Symphony Library will also benefit greatly I imagine from more RAM. I am hitting a ceiling currently very quickly which I am sure is due to a slow CPU and not enough RAM. It looks like I will be using two computers for a while.

It will be interesting to see what your experience with 64 bits and music will be Xite4Live.

Using Ubuntu for music now has got to be a joke. I am laughing so hard! Rosegarden sucks!

I don't want to learn Sonar so I will wait for Cubase. Maybe the experimental version works. I don't know. I need to research this.

The VST Bridge for plug-ins and Virtual Instruments

The 64-bit Preview version of Cubase/Nuendo for Windows Vista 64 contains VST Bridge capability, which allows you to run VST plug-ins and instruments, even if they are not (yet) available in 64-bit format. This is meant as a transitional aid until your favorite plug-ins are replaced by true 64-bit versions.

Nice, I don't think there are any upgrade paths for most of my VSTi instruments. There is a 64bit ASIO4ALL for audio.

[dawman]

Brotha' Man Braincell,

I believe you can still use your old VSTi's.
Check into LAAtido............................http://www.musikbanken.se/TechLaaTiDo.aspx

I know nothing about it but a guy from Germany who I chat with uses it in Kontackt and Giga somehow, while using more RAM and a 64bit O.S.
I will experiment with my friends DAW's but with my DAW's I cannot take a chance of downtime until I have a month off in Februray.
It looks like my new toys will be available during that time, but I have learned to not count on anything. In the audio world there are too many variables that can change release dates and ETA's. The benefit though was I immediately went into purchase mode, so at least I am ahead of the game in that department.

Since I also use VSL stuff in Giga and VST formats, I will keep you posted.
Currently I can only load what I need live but that's my bread and butter.
Someday I will be able to load everything, but until then I will suffer as you do until I see a stable viable solution.

[valis]

OSX is 64bits a long time now and it outperforms any windows station (unfortunately).
i recommend having yourself prepped hardware-wise for 64bit .

64 bits has much more resolution than 32 bits and this alone is worth in sound improvement!

it does not really improve recording quality but it will improve filters and oscillators, where coefficients precision is critical to sound.

you can do 64bit calculations on 32 bit systems, problem is that it takes about 3-4 times slower.

OSX is actually not truly 64bit, it's just using NUMA techniques (PAE) right now to enable OS access to more than 4GB of ram. Applications are still limited to 4GB space though, until 10.6 (Snow Leopard) will be 'truly' 64bits. Apple is also dropping the Carbon UI codebase in 10.6 (they're not completing porting it to be 64bit) which is why some OSX apps (Photoshop being the highest profile case) are going to take a while to migrate to being 64bit (they need to port the apps to Cocoa now).

[the19thbear]

sorry to go ot, but what is the benifit of 64bit anyway??
thanks!

[dawman]

Some guys have these gigantic sample libraries and feel the need to have all of them loaded at once in a project.
I currently load 16,000+ to cover a gig that requires no loading while performing, and some think I am extreme.
This is because we roll from song to song and often I use mixmaster to fade/vector, in & out of same tempo'd tunes.
But if that seems extreme there are many " Pro's " at the Com-POSER forums that use Dual Octo-Quad Macs and 16GB's of RAM w/ 60,000 samples loaded, w/ tons of lame reverbs that seem to think it's necessary.
I still think that just adding a V-Rack or Receptor to an already stable DAW would suffice. But these Mac guys are real adamant about their " Movie Deadlines " and super spec'd DAW's.
Funny thing though, I actually re create instruments from the same libraries and use them, but avoid loading the articulations I think are unnecessary and useless.
How many different types of a Pizzacatto can a guy use?
There are articulations that are close mic'd, ambient, etc. all stacked inside of the same program. and by deleting the " Pizzacatto Plucked by Elves " articulations and all of these other useless sounds, I seem to avoid the chase the Vista game.
But many claim the strings plucked w/ a 5 mph breeze from the left side of the stage is better than the Pizzacatto plucked by Elves w/ a 6 mph downdraft from above the Conductors podium.

Sorry about my brash humor, but these are still unrealistic strings !! These guys are freaks, and if they would hire a guy to record the parts like MCCY or Jake from NYC, they could have saved thousands, and sounded much better.
But the mentioning of real strings brings harsh criticism from the " Pros on a deadline ".

[ReD_MuZe]

sorry to go ot, but what is the benifit of 64bit anyway??
thanks!

faster, better.

Valis, what u say is true for tiger.
leopard is true 64bits from the ground up.
snow will be ONLY 64bits ie carbonless (its about time if you ask me, cocoa is so much better.) :>
http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/64bit.html