pc mice, keyboards, and wrist injuries

[kensuguro]

I was looking into the gyration mouse+keyboard combo, feeling like replacing my belkin "the most normal full size keyboard you could ever find" + logitech mx laser combo. They both work very fine, but just wanted to check out some new stuff for the heck of it. Who knows.. "okay" could always be replaced by something better right? (I did order the gyration combo)

Anyway, I looked into two different things in trying to find alternative approaches to typing and mousing. Alternative keyboard layouts, and ergonomic design. (for both) With ergonomic design, the deal is same as usual. Form fits the hands, less strain, etc... Reading through a bunch of the sales talk, I was surprised how much focus was on wrist injuries and the likes. Wrist injuries from over mousing and typing? Really?

And then with keyboard layouts.. it's dvorak vs this new one called Colemak. There are bunch of other ones too, but they all pretty much say the same thing: "Qwerty was invented to slow down typers on typewriters so that the typewriter arms wouldn't bunch up and get stuck. Our new method re-orders the key layout on key usage statistics which results in less finger travel distance." And you guessed it, new methods protect against wrist injuries and repetitive something something injuries. Can you really type your hand into injury? I seriously wonder.

I mean, it can be done, sure. Just like you can poke your eye out with chopsticks. My comparison is with piano playing technique (as in form). With piano, it's understandable because you are pressing against something that has considerable weight, resistance, and then striking an endpoint. So, it's a cycle of apply force, stop, apply force, stop. In this scenario, injury is very possible just because the amount of force being applied. (and good form aims to minimize it) A pianist also must move his hands and fingers across a considerable amount of distance. And so overall, it's very understandable that seriously practicing piano (several hours each day) with bad form can cause lasting damage.

Going back to keyboard and mouse... uhm... how much resistance does a pc keyboard key have? How much distance does one's hand/finger have to travel? How much area does a typical person's mousing require? I mean come on. A pc keyboard doesn't take kilograms of energy to depress, and the hand center rarely moves beyond a couple of inches from home row position. Sure, fingers move too.. but unlike music, there's no pressing clock to consistently strike keys against (as in, continuous 16th notes at 130bpm). The interval between key strokes is also not that bad.. at most being close to 32nd note clusters at a moderate tempo. Mouse? I can't even imagine how you could ever strain your hand, unless you mouse was made of lead, and put on an inclined plane or something. Of course, with both keyboard and mouse, it is possible that a user continuously applies too much force in a direction where the continuous force has no effect (waste of energy), like continuously pressing a key after it is fully depressed (joint and tendon stress), slamming on keys with such force that the sudden stop in motion could cause the extra force to be absorbed by the joints (again joint and tendon stress), or pushing down on a mouse (plain stupidity)... but who would do that??

Anyway, it all seems to be sales smooth talk to me. I dunno, I program throughout the day, and consider myself to be a heavy typer and mouse user... and I seriously have never felt anything that could lead to any sort of physiological damage. Does my piano technique help me? I doubt it matters single bit. So what are these people doing to injure themselves? Does anyone know of anyone who's hurt themselves typing and mousing?

[darkrezin]

I think RSI definitely exists. IMHO the main cause is your positioning/posture in relation to the keyboard/mouse. I can feel it myself when I'm using a laptop in certain postures. I know people who have developed quite serious RSI from working at desktop machines, one of them even changed his career entirely.

[kensuguro]

wow, I'm surprised. I guess it can be done then.. Deepest sympathies for your friend.. I seriously was expecting the response to be "You figured it out just now? That stuff's all hot air!".

Maybe I do "play" the pc keyboard as if I was playing piano, who knows. Use the weight of your hands to your advantage I say... Next thing we know, pc keyboard users will be practicing free hand drops and getting typing form tutoring. Not sure what you can do with a mouse though..

[ReD_MuZe]

ergonomics are very important, but dont expect any tool to be 100% ergonomic.
as a cellist i can tell you that even the most uncomfortable tools have a right way and wrong way to be used.
and the wrong way can be very harmful.

imo getting used to a special mouse or keyboard is problematic if want to have comfortable access to "normal computers"
so what i did when i got pains, is invested in a good logitech keyboard( one i don't have to struggle with) a good logitech mouse (g5 - gotta love it) a good chair for the right posture, and optimum table height. wrist pain - gone.

here is a good way to strengthen your wrists in times of pain:
take a bucket of warm water with salt and squash a sponge with your injured hand inside. this will relax muscle tension, and if you have a dislocated bone there it will allow it to reposition itself. this often happens without you noticing but typing can make it painful over time.

i also think that practicing the piano might strengthen your wrists (once they stop hurting).

[kensuguro]

seeing videos like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgnDk-yz ... re=related

it's amazing how some people can type without injury, with the most absurd techniques! Guess it's by luck.

[nightscope]

So what are these people doing to injure themselves? Does anyone know of anyone who's hurt themselves typing and mousing?

They are doing exactly the same as you, using a standard mouse and keyboard, but they are a simply a little further down the road. You are young but RSI and Carpel are waiting in ambush some way down the track especially if you are a heavy mouser/keyboarder. 10, 20 years, who knows. It is a bitch. A good friend of mine had his drumming career finished by Carpel Tunnel Sydrome. He was a superb jazz techinition but all that wrist work on the skins over the years finally took their toll. I know loads of people who have mousing/keyboard related problems, especially in the audio industry. Preventive action is favourite. My brother is a chiropractor and has a ton of patients who suffer from this sort of injury.

One of the main causes of RSI is "pronation". Mice cause the forearm to be unaturally parallel to the table top causing all sorts of stress in the wrist, forearm, shoulder and back. http://www.backinaction.co.uk/evoluent-vertical-mouse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronation

http://www.jeffreyburch.com/home/jb1/page/145/45

I myself got the first unwelcome twinges of RSI having used meeces since the Dawn OF DOS and picking guitar with smallish hands for what seems like an eternity. I have used a trackball for many, many years. But even that had it's drawbacks. I now use a Frankenstein's combination of trackball, Wacom tablet, loads of faders, Nocturn, a left hand keypad which can fire off multiple key strokes with one press & MacroExpress. It is a certified madhouse but my RSI is now total history. That tablet is wonderful, Nocturn gets my vote for Product Of The Year.

Regular breaks, exercises, a light touch, etc, also help prevent RSI. Meeces are evil creatures.

ns

[nightscope]

I actually recommend also having 2 mices

Agreed. I swop between the tablet and trackball like a demon. I think it's the manic mouse grip that can potentially do damage.

These are good advice; from the link I posted above.

How to Reduce Hand Strain: Twelve Big Hints

1. Vary your tasks. Mix several activities in the course of a day to reduce repetitive activity.

2. When performing a repetitive task frequently vary the way you are using your hands. Even small variations help.

3. Avoid working with your elbows bent at an angle less than 90 degrees. Too much bend at the elbow compresses blood vessels and nerves.

4. Whenever possible, keep your wrists at an angle near neutral. Flexion puts strain on the carpal tunnel. Extension places three times the strain as when the wrist is flexed.

5. Don't rest your wrists on surfaces, whether the hand is in neutral or in pronation. Resting the hand for long periods of time compresses the carpal tunnel and other vulnerable structures.

6. When you must use the hand in pronation, try to vary this with motions that bring the hand into thumb up position. When you are able to rest your hands, rest them in supination.

7. Minimize time spent contracting or narrowing the palm of the hand, as in opposition and pinching movements. This position contributes directly to carpal tunnel pressure. Adjust your grip position so the thumb doesn't close tightly across the fingers.

8. Keep your shoulders relaxed and your neck straight as much as possible to minimize pressure on nerve and vessel structures distal to your hands.

9. Breathe! It increases relaxation and blood oxygenation.

10. If you use a computer for several hours a day, then own two or three different mouse styles. Changing your mouse frequently and adjusting the angle of your hands often will help reduce repetitive strain.

11. Get regular exercise. One factor which may contribute to RSI is low cardiovascular condition of the body. Give your hands every chance to receive good blood flow.

12. If you experience RSI symptoms in your job, minimize hobbies which require intensive hand movements. Play soccer rather than racquet sports. Sing rather than play the guitar.

ns

[ReD_MuZe]

honestly its just a load of bullox imho.
The mouse and the drum sticks is not what makes you sick, its the way you hold them and use them.

here are just a few videos of VERY old people playing instruments that stress the wrist and joints WAY more than a mouse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-umLy_5J3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo113j8sQRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdbUrX6PnOQ

and thats 60+ years of player (each being 70 - 80 years in these videos)

notice their hands, watch how relaxed they are.
Rostropovich the cellist has to push several kilos of force with his fingers , cello strings are not like guitar strings i can tell u that!
classical players train for 8-10 hours a day (so did i), it becomes evident VERY early on that you either hold your instrument right, or risk serious damage.

honestly, if you want to avoid hand problems, you need to learn how to use them, and what better way than learning an instrument?

[pollux]

it's not bullox... I studied medicine for 6 years, and the problem related to keyboards and mice is VERY real.
The main reason for it, it's not the pressure, or the speed, but the friction between the tendons and the synovials.

If you wath carefully those three videos, you'll notice that they all keep their hands slightly bent down, like this:
(fingers) _/------ (elbow).
This position reduces the friction aforementioned.

Keyboard and mice force you to keep the hands slightly (or even A LOT depending on the design) bent up, like this:
(fingers) --\____ (elbow). This position increases the friction, therefore producing irritation and inflamation on the synovials, which ends up with the carpian tunnel syndrom and other alike diseases...

the more ergonomic mice (and trackballs) are those that have a certain angle with the table, with the buttons "on the side", someting like |\
as for the keyboards, the best is to have a good table height and a good wrist rest so that the forearms are slightly above the hands and the wrists are relaxed. The ergonomic keyboards really help too (those like "split" in the center and slightly curved).

[ReD_MuZe]

Eh, nothing stops a novice playing a piano like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64YWB73uatU

or a cellist playing like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq77Dqey1Rw

just as nobody can stop one typing like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twuPDqWihN0
on a special ergonomic keyboard.

Even i with my plain keyboard, know how to use it in such a way where my wrist is not bent upward. thats the first thing they teach you on piano lesson, my teacher put a penny on the back of my hand and let me play like that... try typing like this and you will see what i mean.

yes, ergonomic is good and all that, but it doesn't fix anything if you don't know how to use your hands.

not to mention those wierd upheld mice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViH9sEhHecs

or these wierd gadgets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coEhrNa34uE

my point is the whole ergonomic hype is non informative and over-bloated.
a lesson in piano, or Alexander method would be a better investment than a fancy keyboard and mouse.

learning how to sit, and use your hands and fingers in a non destructive way.

[pollux]

my point is the whole ergonomic hype is non informative and over-bloated.
a lesson in piano, or Alexander method would be a better investment than a fancy keyboard and mouse.

learning how to sit, and use your hands and fingers in a non destructive way.

You can sit in a good position in a shitty chair for 8 hours and you'll likely end up with a lumbar ache.. Sitting well in a good chair will be much better, and having an excellent chair that enforces the right position will allow you to focus on what you're doing and not on how you sit.

Reasoning like that one could also say that the airbags in a car are superflous because you can always learn defensive driving and so.. yet they prove to be effective on a daily basis. Or that we should learn to ignore pain instead of taking painkillers...

Ergonomic stuff won't replace good habits for sure, but they do help making work more comfortable.

[garyb]

airbags are pretty superflous. if they really wanted the car to be safe, it wouldn't be like it is in any way. airbags are an afterthought, a bolt-on.

a good ergonomic chair or whatever is a great thing!
the use of the word "ergonomic" on everything shows just how stupid we've become as a species, though.

replace "ergonomic", with "well made". what idiot would buy anything that was poorly made, that wouldn't last or would hurt you if you put it to it's intended purpose?

oh wait....don't answer that....

[pollux]

airbags are pretty superflous. if they really wanted the car to be safe, it wouldn't be like it is in any way. airbags are an afterthought, a bolt-on...

If cars were made to be safe, they wouldn't let humans drive

[kensuguro]

Eh, nothing stops a novice playing a piano like this:
my point is the whole ergonomic hype is non informative and over-bloated.
a lesson in piano, or Alexander method would be a better investment than a fancy keyboard and mouse.

Quite true. Combine that with gary's comment... A well made, ergonomic device shouldn't allow one to use the device in a harmful way in the first place. Pianos and other instruments aren't ergonomic because they need to be of a certain shape, either by convention or because of acoustics. Keyboards and mice don't have this limit, so it's actually surprising that the problem hasn't been solved.

from my perspective, any surface that needs continuous depressing, would benefit from using the piano technique. I don't think piano technique is specific to a piano at all, it's a technique to apply downward force on a bunch of spread apart things. I'm not so sure about the mouse tho.. what form would apply to that..

[ReD_MuZe]

try the penny on the back of your hand thing

p.s. i never said get a bad chair and sit on it for 8 hours... thats kinda the opposite of what i said...

[astroman]

software to driver:
are you sure you want to engage the brakes ?
click OK to continue

Tom

[pollux]

software to driver:
are you sure you want to engage the brakes ?
click OK to continue

Tom

Sorry.. "GODDAMNMOTHAFUCKINGASSHOLWHOTAUGHHTYOUTODRIVE" is not a recognized option.
Please select one of the following "Yes", "No", "Let the car decide", "Let your fate decide"

[garyb]

wow, you guys are really good at going off at a tangent.

nice one astro. i agree, if humans aren't fit to drive(an insane thing if there ever was one, travelling at those speeds on 4 rubber ballons in a big heavy hunk of metal and plastic...), then they aren't fit to program computers to control the cars.

so, we stop everyone from driving, but then the cities are just clogged, so we'll have to do a little weeding...

...see what you started?