Surround Reverb

A place to talk about whatever Scope music/gear related stuff you want.

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dawman
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Surround Reverb

Post by dawman »

I have never used a surround mixer before and chose the 16 S as the outputs accomodated my 5.1 Klipsch speakers.
The STM48S is way beyond my speaker systems and programming capabilities, so the 16 S was simple enough to mess around with for a newbie.
I used synthesizers like Solaris/QWave and Prowave as I could just experiment w/ the panning and each preset has the required effects already.
I am hooked. Hearing a synth in 5.1 is incredible sounding.
I used the center channel for my Rotary ( upper horn ) while the lower baffle is electronically emulated and can be panned to five other channels.

But I noticed how many outputs the STM48 S had and was hoping I don't have to buy more cabinets, I can barely understand the conception of 5.1 yet, more less 8.1 ??!! :o

Which brings me to this question.
We will have a Surround Reverb for Scope 5.0 and I am trying to find out if it is for 5.1 or 8.1....Not even sure how it would work, but I am seriously fascinated with it.

Anyone here mix in surround using Scope and an A16U?
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Mr Arkadin
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Re: Surround Reverb

Post by Mr Arkadin »

Have to say surround is a mystery to me. The manuals aren't very good for those either - no real-world applications given. It doesn't even tell you what the LFE output is. However i would imagine that just because it has nine outputs doesn't mean you have to use them all Jimmy, just hook up your 5.1 and ignore the other outputs.

Here is the surround reverb. It's called SC-Room 5-1, i'm guessing that means it's a 5.1 surround diaperman.
dawman
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Re: Surround Reverb

Post by dawman »

You're Killin' Me. :lol:
Instead of different ERlec's on channels or anything like that it appears to be different levels for each channel. Looks like a job for a 3rd Party guys for something as abstract as that.

Here's a Solaris Bass Preset I used for the demo, the LFE ( Sub ) won't be noticable unless you have one, but this is one FAT BASTARD.
I am having a blast doing Dance music. It's fun to see people havin' fun, and feeling low end bass synthlines is quite rewarding. It allows our Bassist to be funky w/ slaps, pulls, etc., while I keep the rumble going.

http://www.planetz.com/forums/download/file.php?id=3961

This preset uses 3 x Pairs of Oscillators and Filters ( 6 Total !!! :o )

Big detunin on the upper registers makes this a useless sound IMHO, so I did a midrange lick, and an upper mid snippet so you can hear it's detuning. However, this sound doesn't come to life until you feel the low end, and the detuning is spread out further for some cool motion that low.

The Tube Filter in Solaris is incredible and must be heard to believe.
The CEM Filter is your Curtis chipset sound from the Prophets and Oberheims.
The SSM and Mini are new Filters for great resonating sweeps and superior low end rumblings too.

In 5.1 this tickles !!
sonolive
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Re: Surround Reverb

Post by sonolive »

hi all,

some basic things about surround :

5.1 or more ?

5.1 is the universal standard in surround, this means that it is the only mode that can be played back, others exist but need some specific materials (hardware and audio)

5.1 means :
- 5 (sattelite) channels:
Left
Right
Center
Left surround (rear left)
Right surround (rear right)
- 1 LFE (Low frequency effects) Channel

How to play it :

the audio channels (5+1) are multiplexed in a digital file .
The main formats are AC3 (Dolby digital) DTS , WMA (free encoders from bill gates ;-) ) there are many others but in fact the only ones we find on medias are AC3 and DTS.

Audio is usually in 16 bits 48 Khz but you can do what you want with the encoder ...

you need a specific encoder to "mutiplex" the audio channels in a AC3 or DTS file ...
So you need a decoder to play it ...

The main media that contains surround digital files are DVD , even without video ...

in fact you can burn it on what you want, but practically, only DVD players (hardware and software) understand the files AC3 or DTS : note that some HW DVD players also contains the decoder and ouput the six channels (analog and generally on cinch)

but the multiplexed digital files is generally outputed via optical or coaxial connector and goes in a AV receiver amp that decodes the media and play it on 5+1 channels.

Note that DTS is better (soundly speaking) that AC3 while WMA is very correct, let's say better than the others ...

The reason is quite simple ... AC3 is older than DTS that is older than WMA ...
AC3 is a MP3 compression of the 6 channels before multiplexing
the bitrate of AC3 is generally around 480 while DTS is usually 1024 (i don't remember the exact values but easy to find on the net ...)

Notes about the .1 channel :

the LFE channels combines Two things :
The lower part of each 5 (sattelite) channels (below 80 Hz generally) + the specific LFE channel

This process is build with the Bassmanagement in the decoder ... it adds the lowfreq of the 5 channels and add LFE channel

the LFE channel is mainly used in movies ... for "big" effects , like bombs, guns, thunders ...

in music, it is recommended to not use it ... while the .1 channel will have the lowfreq of each channels ... mixing for example the bass or the kik drum in the LFE can be a disaster when plyaing it through a decoder ...

if you know you won't use a decoder, for example, you will play back directly your DAW (6channels) in the PA, you must use the LFE for the low freq ... but if you know that your music will be played via AC3 or DTS ... don't use it ... let the bass manager do the job !

About the "center" channel :

There are many theories for music , some don't use it at all, some love it (i do) ...
You can use it as a "real" center while a "virtual" center would be a center pan in the L/R mix ...
these possibilities give you a wild range of mixing some tracks, like vocals, solos ...real or virtual ...

for movies or TV the center channels is mainly used for the voices (the voice of the one you see on screen)

About the "surround" channels :

Here again, nobody has the same use of it ...
some only mix the reverbs and a little bit of music arguing that music comes "in front" and not "behind"
I personnally don't agree, like many others, surround channels can be a very artistic way of mixing ...

Even Live, i already have mixed some live music in 5.1 using surround channels with very amazing results ...

In fact i do think that ONLY EMOTION COUNTS ... if what the audience hear is emotional enough, it'ok !!!

about reverbs in 5.1 :

my own experience teached me that reverbs are quite unusefull in 5.1 while the space placement is already done with the 5 channels ... nothing to do with stereo ... you immediately have a sensation of space and spatialisation in 5.1 mixes and you quicly understand that reverbs are not usefull, at least , much less than in stereo ...

you can use one on the "master", 5 in/5 outs , just to give some specific effects on your mix ...

in facts reverb in 5.1 must be understood like effects and not as spacialisation ...

here are some of my thoughts ... would like to read others experiences here

cheerz
olive
dawman
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Re: Surround Reverb

Post by dawman »

Thanks Olive.
Check your emails.

And yes, I plan on using whatever tools and effects will work and sound the best for me.
These little cheap-o spekaers are temporary references.
Once I come to grips with the concepts a little better, I will begin using a larger system and mix live synths in with pre recorded tracks like a Synth DJ I suppose.

I find that w/ extreme modulations on certain synths w/ expanded capabilites like Solaris 5.0, I can do some amazing stuff. But the 5.1 idea using pre recorded tracks is what I must attempt.
Using portable powered mid field monitors and a mobile rig might be feasible afterall.
dawman
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Re: Surround Reverb

Post by dawman »

Newly founded feature in Kontackt 2.0 Player looks to be made for XITE-1 also.
My new VSTi's & GVI's I recently bought work well with the RAM, and are such a pleasure to have Scope effects and mixers used w/ them instead of the chezzy IR's.

I have no idea what I am going to do w/ surround yet, but thanks to memebers here, plenty of examples, links and Tools w/ help me see if this even worthwhile live.

I hope so, as I wish to push Soniccore down everyone else's throats when I get it.
I see their success in Scope 5.0 and the XITE-1 as OUR success, and PlanetZ will explode w/ new buyers, developers, and talent. :wink:

I Have A Dream.........Dr. Martin Luther King 1963
..............................Barrack Obama 2007
..............................DyperJim.........continuosly.
arela
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Re: Surround Reverb

Post by arela »

I record Scopesynths to VDAT - cut and import to Cubase - and just for my own DVD-slideshows.
Then I use Cubase4 fx or the old Steinberg Surround edition (and sometimes 5.1 Starplugs)

I have Celmos Outputizer and Ultimatizer Station 5+1, but hardly use it's easier to let Cubase do the job.
Ahh - and sometimes I might add a little Masterverb etc. before final VDAT rec to DTS decoding.

Which brings me to this question.
We will have a Surround Reverb for Scope 5.0 and I am trying to find out if it is for 5.1 or 8.1....Not even sure how it would work, but I am seriously fascinated with it.
For live you might add 1 stereo MasteVerb for front, 1 for rear and 1 for center before you send the signals to a amp (a lot of amps i guess).
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garyb
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Re: Surround Reverb

Post by garyb »

Jim, i think it might work....
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garyb
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Re: Surround Reverb

Post by garyb »

it's the club's problem here...
dawman
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Re: Surround Reverb

Post by dawman »

True. the clubs provide everything, but I use my Barbetta's. 1 x Sub 41. and 4 x SE-32's. The rotary Cabinet serves as the center channel and it's lower baffle emulation of a real Leslie has a cutoff frequency of anywhere from 440 to 800, and can have their amounts sent out to the chosen satellite and even fedback as a loop to the center and upper horn freq's.
I am overwhelmed by the options live, but it is starting to take form thanks to Olive and Eric's tools.
I was unaware of their use until recently, and can use the tools instead of the akward 16 S.

My Cabinets are very portable so no problem there, and it looks as though Bose will be showing some new surround live options with their L1's @ NAMM.
I should have known that other developers were thinking about the same thing live, Bose was smart enough to buy up every A16U that could be found 2 years ago. Anyone wanna bet if they opened one those up?

Arela, thanks for pointing out the 5.1 from Celmo, I forgot about that one.
It seems as though it will be an all French solution again, DAS, Celmo and SpaceF devices shall populate the project.
G.O.S.T.'s Dynomic can be used maybe as an alternative to a crossover? We shall see.
The DAS Reverb Griesverb w/ it's zipper free design must be used. If XITE-1 isn't released by months end I shall do this w/o them as I must move forward immediately. So developers that have included their designs as part of the package will get paid twice by me, cool, they desrve it.

I am a big supporter of my family, our troops abroad, and my 3rd party developers.

BTW Happy Veterans Day to anyone who has served their counrty be it in Europe, Asia, Asia, Africa or the USA. I salute your service. :wink:

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... &sk=t&sd=a
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