Sampler Apps On Their Deathbeds?

[dawman]

Gigastudio was the first to enter the streaming audio sampler apps., and probably the first to leave. But I am hearing and noticing some surprising events.

The NS forums have removed Kontackt, Gigastudio, Halion and Logic's EX24 threads from their forums. This comes at the same time as developers seem to be going with Bidules Audio Engine, and applying their own treats like ARIA from Garritan, and VSL's newest design.

Instead of everything being sorted out and made to play w/ several formats, developers are rolling their own. This now seems like we will see Mac or PC, AU or VST. This could be the Sword Of Damacles, but much easier than developers having to chase formats around as well as O.S.'s.

Rumor has it that a developer with decades of sampling under their belts has a hardware BETA 1U ( Like XITE-1 ) that comes standard w/ a RISC processor, custom software design and a base model of 160GB of storage w/ an SSD.

New England Digital, EMU ( Creative ), or Akai, are the only ones that could pull this off. NED has been out of the game too long, and EMU, while it's software w/ all of those excellent filters would be a great choice, I can only see Akai doing this, as they have been there, done that, and continue to survive with excellent hardware designs. MPC's are still selling like hot cakes, and the company generates enough capital to take a chance.

But surely just like UAD jumped in while SC was making XITE-1, Yamaha and Roland could come in and cause Akai some grief by releasing similar products. But Akai makes sense to me.

Let's hope my rep buddy has his story straight. I will buy a hardware sampler at the drop of a hat. He's the same rep who told me about Creamware back in '98. So I doubt that it's a fish story.

You know you're getting old when you used hardware for years till it became somewhat obsolete, then software until it became lame, and then hardware again.

Hell, I am so old, when I walked into an Antique store and Art Gallery in Tahoe last week, they locked the doors behind me.............................Ankyu..............Ankyuvarymush.

O.K....just one more joke.

There were 2 Mexican illegals w/ signs standing on Flamingo and the Strip last Friday, as that's a great day for moochers. The one poor chap didn't have a dime to spend when the Roach Coach ( Mobile Taco Stands ) stopped. The broke guy saw the second Mexican guy pull out a roll of 20's and 100's and was shocked this guy was doing so well. So he said....Hombre,....how are you making so much money here? The second Mexican guy replied, do you see your sign ( I will work for food ) ? That's no good Cabrone, read mine....... Chinga said the first Mexican guy......While his sign said I will work for food, the second Mexican guy's sign said in bold letters.." I ONLY NEED 20 BUCKS TO GET BACK TO MEXICO "..........Ankyu.................Ankyuvarymush....Please stay seated.

[kensuguro]

Instead of everything being sorted out and made to play w/ several formats, developers are rolling their own. This now seems like we will see Mac or PC, AU or VST. This could be the Sword Of Damacles, but much easier than developers having to chase formats around as well as O.S.'s.

Rumor has it that a developer with decades of sampling under their belts has a hardware BETA 1U ( Like XITE-1 ) that comes standard w/ a RISC processor, custom software design and a base model of 160GB of storage w/ an SSD.

I think there are many peripheral aspects that will play an important role in the transition, and more importantly, what us end users will get. The benefit for having a unified platform, as giga established, is that it becomes less and less of a liability on the library producers, since they can resel their product to many markets (giga, kontakt, halion to a certain degree, logic's exs to a certain degree). This makes producing a library a great financial choice, since it's very easy to reuse and scale their material.

With everyone rolling their own sample engines, be it re-using bidule's engine or writing one from ground up, it creates a greater financial friction for library producers because now they're not just producing libraries, but also responsible for creating the platform on which they will distribute the products. Currently, I'm not sure if this is a good thing because that means they will be slower to change (because they can control the sampler), and also are incented to "keep what works" in a financial sense. Also, because this will cause a great financial burden on library producers, then the smaller production houses will suffer, and thus leading to less "little man beats the big guy" phenomenon, which I believe was what brought up many of these library production houses in the first place. (correct me if I'm wrong) Many libraries grew because they appealed to a niche audience, and they were able to do that because they didn't have to worry about developement costs on the sampler itself.

So, while the big players benefit from their custrom rolled engines, big name samplers will loose force (like giga), and therefore, the smaller library producers will loose platforms to release to, making niche market library production a poor financial choice. I worry that this may have kick started a negative spiral... but maybe I'm being too negative..

[MD69]

Hmmm,

None library developper have the money to develop, debug and maintain a sampler engine which will be tested to cooperate with all the hosts, vstis available. Bigger players had troubles so ... They will discover it is far more easy to build a sample library than to write a good program!
Bidule engine could be good, but have not yet proven it is reliable (does it work with multiple CPU for example, does it support multiple hardware platform correctly (AMD, Intel, Chipset,...)?...). Currently Plogue staff doesn't have bidule working on multicores because they don't have invested with Quad core so imagine Dual Xeon platforms...
So there is a good chance we see these poor apps going on again, with company which don't have the money to solve the issues!

cheers

[dawman]

Garritans ARIA is working well, and in 64bit also using the Plogue Audio Engine.

Bidule is a marvelous host. I have barely scratched it's surface relating to the audio engine though. It's complex possibilities in MIDI and Audio are astounding.

I expect Seb@Plogue will continue optimizing the app. For now using the 3GB Switch, which isn't formally supported, it works well for my needs.

I look forward to a hardware sample again w/ an external LCD connection like the Roland 770's I used long ago. This time, high quality sounds and zero load times. I use to have to use multiple hardware samplers live, 2 or 3 loading while 2 or 3 performing. Stacks of 5 1/4" discs for the QX-1, and 3.5's w/ shoebox sized HDD's on the Rolands. I went through Hell nightly and earned every shot of Jagermeister back then.

[MD69]

Hi Jimmy

Garritan ARIA might work well, but does it work well with most host and all vsti ... and any hardware config....not so sure.

Bidule is a nice environment, but is not capable of multi coring while reaper is performing well, and they develop it since 2001.
If ARIA is multi core enabled, why then bidule is not? ...

I like bidule, but I think plogue is understaffed to fill the gap with company like steinberg, Native, EMU and the likes.

Look at what Daryl (at DAW bench) is facing ... you'll get my points.

cheers

[dawman]

That's a great benching forum, as he is honest and unbiased IMO.

I do not have a need for an upgrade where loaded content is concerned, but this could change as I will be adding an expensive EWQLPiano VSTi. A girl from NYC made a few New Age Piano mp3's that were very dynamic. She should demo for the company as their selected MIDI files, or recordings they used were static and ( yawn ) w/o feel.

I do have Reaper and that Cat really continues to impress. Mehdi made a nice remote for Reaper also. I should look into it a little more, but currently I have a live gig where stability is paramount and there's no room for new testing of devices or apps. VDAT and Scope perform flawlessley under Bidule, but when I start adding new VSTi's since Tascam has ceased to exist, I am sure my loads and CPU will need optimization.

These VSTi's really beat up on CPU's and sub system memory, much more than Gigastudio does. I see why many here and at other forums require Dual Quad's and 16GB's of RAM. Personally for a live gig, I think you're asking for trouble. Very few VSTi guys I have seen have an easy night performing. They are always staring at their DAW, loading, tweaking, and still sounding like a sample of a synth.

I want hardware again. Even a hardware sequencer attached to the same LCD as the sampler. Of course these are real time, and live tools which everyone will not need, so they will probably never get off of the drawing board.

I Have A Dream...................Dr. Martin Luther the King....1963.

Triple LCD's like in the old EMagic Brochure's of yore. One w/ Xite-1, one for the sampler, and one for the sequencer. All in a RISC based hardware config, and in a portable case w/ LCD's that fold down like the like the wings on the vintage Japanese Zero planes of WWII.

Meanwhile Back At The Ranch...................8U will just have to do for now.

[MD69]

Hi Jimmy,

The best piano sounds is ... in your hands!

your piano technique will make your sampled piano shine far more than the best piano sound in poorly skilled hands.

Don't fall in G.A.S trap!

cheers

[braincell]

The good news for hardware is that USB3 will be out next year with With speeds of 4.8 Gbit/s (600 MB/s). SC should have waited for that before releasing the Xite IHMO. I wonder if it will be steady enough though. USB2 is actually quite fast but it dips a lot. You can't have that for audio. That's why firewire is better.

[garyb]

both firewire and usb are not professional use worthy when it comes to audio, even if many use them.


the reason that a good hardware sampler isn't made is that then there won't be any business after the first production run is sold and everyone who needs one has a working machine for the next 20 years.

[braincell]

I was thinking it's going to last a lot longer than PCIe will. What happens when you get an Xite and then you can no longer buy a computer with PCIe? That would suck.

Some people still record with analog tape and that introduces all kinds of noise and tape wobble. Sayng that Firewire is not profession is a rather broad and general statement. It still blows away the analog connectors on a standard SC card.

[Shroomz~>]

It still blows away the analog connectors on a standard SC card.

What's your basis for saying this?? Have you done tests with your hardware that give you that specific result or impression? If not, why make such a statement? I'm not following your train of thought at all here. Maybe you can show us some tests you did or read about somewhere?

[Fluxpod]

both firewire and usb are not professional use worthy when it comes to audio, even if many use them.


the reason that a good hardware sampler isn't made is that then there won't be any business after the first production run is sold and everyone who needs one has a working machine for the next 20 years.

I disagree on Firewire.Metric halo and rme are going the route in a very Pro way, they are incredible stabile at 32 samples buffer.And if you need a Hardware sampler grab a Yamaha a5000 they are rock solid with tonns of filters and 6 independent dsp efx blocks.We have the a3000 and a 5000,never had 1 prob.I dont really use much soft samplers so i can not assist there.

[garyb]

i didn't say you can't use firewire professionally.

it's hard to call a protocol that is as flakey as firewire professional, though. the ONLY reason that firewire and usb are so universal is to ease the consumer experience.

i would never say "don't use that thing which is working for you", though....

[dawman]

You Are Right GaryB About Product Quality,

In 1985 I purchased my gear from Yamaha that lasted until 2005. 20 Years w/ zero troubles, and the stuff never even needed upgrading, as they got it right the first time. The KX88 lasted until I replaced it w/ the Oberheim in '95, the DMP7 / PCM70 combo made it until I bought a Scope DAW and a PCM91 in 2004.

I don't have a problem paying 4 large for an XITE-1 as I trust SC and the boys. Afterall their cards were punished night after night and never crashed once. So if I take home 50 large in one year just from one of my gigs, which is an understatement, the meger 9% investment that I spend, is pure profit after the first 4 weeks. Well let's see how long XITE-1 will last. Let's say 10 years.............that's 496,000 USD profit.

No, I'd rather spend 4 large a year chasing around VST ghosts, and M$. Fuck That Shit.

I buy what I see as a high quality sounding, impressive ROI product, w/o thinking twice. The little DSP cards were just my way of seeing how real time live quality audio can be achieved, w/ zero headaches.

I believe an SSD hardware sampler is just around the corner. I have a knack for for seeing the future when it comes to audio and fine Ho's. I spotted Heidi Klum back when she was in that boring, conservative housewife brochure where the Amish shop. Also predicted Allesandra Ambrosia's rise to fame. That was easy, as those Ho's were way fine, even in a silly shower curtain looking dress like they modelled. Guessing hardware, is a different story, but I have seen the writing on the wall, and predict it's birth at NAMM '09. Completely unnanounced and packed w/ Intels SSD's and 192KHz DAC's like the Rosetta 800's have.




So It Shall Be Written, So It Shall Be Done..................................Yul Brennar as Ramsees The Second in Exodus.............Universal Studios 1956.

[braincell]

Yes I have tested it haven't you? I normally use the S/PDIF. You can tell the difference between that and the analog outs right away. It's not the kind of thing you need to do a scientific study of. It is *so* f&cking obvious.

It still blows away the analog connectors on a standard SC card.

What's your basis for saying this?? Have you done tests with your hardware that give you that specific result or impression? If not, why make such a statement? I'm not following your train of thought at all here. Maybe you can show us some tests you did or read about somewhere?

[Shroomz~>]

Braincell, If you've noticed a quality difference between your SPDIF & analogue I/Os, that doesn't equate to anywhere near the same thing as saying that firewire is better than a Scope card's analogue I/Os, since obviously it would depend on the specific AD/DA firewire interface you're using. Comparing these things as you've done without giving the specifics of the firewire interfaces you're talking about (not to mention some first hand experience in testing some) is just plain wrong imo.

[braincell]

Obviously. The converter inside the card isn't so good.

[valis]

Obviously. The converter inside the card isn't so good.

I don't find that to be the case at all. The "Classic" rca-based card I have has the 18bit/20bit ad/da issue from the v1 legacy cards, and is -10dBv so I don't use it for anything important (send/return), but the XLR i/o on my Pulsar2 sounds considerably punchier than my 2nd gen RME Multiface. The Multiface is a bit 'clearer' into reverb/delay trails and the like but I can tell the transient response on the Scope card is a bit sharper/faster though I don't have the equipment to measure whether that's due to increased slew response or better caps.

What are you comparing the card to?

[dawman]

Meanwhile Back @ The Ranch.......

Giga content is going like Hot Cakes on ebay. There's a chap w/ several high quality VSL libraries that downloads them on an external 100GB USB 2.0 HDD, and is selling them for 160 USD. He has sold several copies of his content to recuperate his 2000 USD investment.

I already have this content and it is excellent, and very cheap. Quite a scam actually as who can sue him...................Giga, VSL...............NOT.

It shows up every 2 weeks as I have tracked him, I should tell him to send me a free copy or I will expose him as a scam artist. TYhen I can resell it as well.

I bet I could get about 5 or 6 200GB versions and pack 'em with my collection of horns guitars and strings. But starting bid will be 250 USD.

Nice way to pay for new Scope plugs.

[valis]

I actually only referred to the noise floor that is higher by the influences in a computer case than in a shielded case for DSP only.

But I guess you were more asking brain

Yea my question was aimed at braincell. In my experience any noise issues are going to be particular to each installation, which means due to other system components which are outside of SC's control. Either that or the cabling connected to the card (either the loom or cables extended off of it) are running near items of intereference.

Personally I've had no noisefloor problems with any of the machines that have housed my cards, and they've been in cramped 'normal' tower cases (which I consider small) and my current install is in a tower case with 2 Xeon cpu's, multiple 10krpm scsi drives and plenty of other peripherals. My Pulsar2/XLR has better than 90db noisefloor when not connected to my board (self-noise) and when connected the noisefloor is that of my board (mixer). For a PCI based card I can't really complain. The Pulsar1/RCA ("classic" i/o) is far worse but it's using rca/phono style consumer connectors at -10dBv, so what can you expect?