maybe some other time [put up original content]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:45 pm

ok, maybe music and death was a bit of an unpleasant topic.. maybe we can talk about it some other time. I'm sort of extreme like that.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:11 am

I did not see the original post, Ken but I do not think that this subject would be any more unpleasant than some of the crap that has been going on here lately. At least it would bring back some seriousness in the community and probably some very pertinent points about life itself.

What was the original post?

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:28 pm

My two favorite topics besides sex. Where is this post? I want to read it. Screw what people think. They tend to go postal about anything and then they will try to get you banned. To hell with the pussies!

Refrochia · Post by **Refrochia** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:38 pm

hehe go braincell

I personally didnt agree with a banning you (although i didnt post to support in the thread where it was discussed) but you gotta admit you can be a bit anal about things sometimes - dont take it personal - i consider your posts a nice contrast

Anyway, dont know what the orignal topic was but, although I dont really listen to guitar music (like my progressive house too much n not enough hours in the day) I would like Pink Floyd - Wish You Were hear played at my funeral as i think that is such a lush song. There is a busker in York, England that plays it so well - whenever i walk past when im out on the razz, I always chuck in a couple of quid and get him to play it - its lovely

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:26 pm

ok, finally got some to to rewrite the topic. I wrote, it, reread it, and though it was kind of heavy..

I was thinking about music and death.. not just how it affects me, but was wondering how it affected other musicians. I've written about this issue awhile back, but perhaps I have a different viewpoint now.

Since my dad passed away when I was 20 or so, (forgot exactly when, sorry dad, lol) death entered into the everyday realm. It became something I subconsciously think about.. not think about in a freaked out way, but just something that I subconsciously know exists, can happen out of the blue, and also subconsciously maintain a capacity to hold that sort of emotional explosion. Can't describe it well, really..

Anyway, so of course this affects the creative part of my mind. First it didn't show up at all, couldn't consciously use it in any meaningful way.. I couldn't handle the emotion very well, not as in breaking out into tears, but just couldn't recall the feeling.. because I really didn't know what to feel. So it was more of a "as if it had no effect" kind of thing.

But then slowly, it started to come out, very unconsciously. It's like a thin sheet of gas that sort of started to form around everything.. You can see through it, and when you're in it, you don't see it, but then when you take a step back, you see that it's covered a large area. I think you can hear it some of my elaborate orchestral tunes. Of course, I intend some of it to sound big, mysterious, and solemn to a certain degree, but there are instances where things spin out of control a bit, and then the music gets taken over.. for a split second. I don't know it at all when I'm writing it, but realize it afterwards, like a week later.

I think most people experience this subconscious take over to a certain degree. I think it's a good thing, but just that this death thing causes a big swell during the subconscious takeover, and sort of blows things out of proportion. Say, if I wanted to write a somewhat everyday sounding tune, and this death thing takes over... and then all of a sudden it's a gigantic serious piece. It's good for cinematic or theatrical stuff.. not really cool for normal music.. like the repertoire of club genres I write in. Not looking down at all, as you know I like doing stuff like that, it's just doesn't convert very well.

I'm not really sure if it's death specific either. It's this sort of huge dynamics in emotion in general. Seems that the amplitude (to be a litle more precise) has gotten very big. Not usually, just split seconds when the "thing" leaks into my writing.

This was up until 1-2 years ago (I'm 28 now), and more recently, it's receeded somewhat. Which is kind of good since I feel that my music has taken back some of its "everyday" feel. I still can't seem to get a handle on consciously recalling my feelings about death, so I can't really think about it too much. And so the mystery is still quite a mystery. Maybe it's just a self protective mechanism. I can recall it for a split second, and then it just sort of blurs away into other thoughts. In terms of music, jazz seems to be working very well since I can throw any emotion at it, and it'll work because there's not much of a stylistic limitation. Only problem is that I'm not technically good enough to do it with ease just yet. With all other music, I started to dismiss a lot of stylistic limitations (very conscious effort), and while it doesn't turn up anything radically innovative, it does give me a wider palette to work with. So I'm hoping that'll increase my music's emotional capacity a bit so it can handle the big stuff, while still being in some sort of funky, punchy, snappy form.

So anyway, back to you guys. I was wondering how the concept of death affects you as a person, your inspiration, your writing process, and finally, your music. oh, and finally, what the audience feels from your music. Death sucks, and there's really no fully digesting of it, but it still inspires me try to artistically understand what it is.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:30 pm

well, i guess death sucks from the point of veiw we have, but it's natural and inevitable since nothing lasts forever and forever is just a long time.

of course, the universe was founded and exists in it's wholeness and fullness(time's just a part of the whole, a measurement of the whole) and so everything is here, always and nothing is born or dies, except in the limited experience we call our lives.

still, i don't want to die, but mostly, i don't want any extra suffering.

if music is the vibration of life, then death is just it's own small part and i don't give it any more importance than any other note or phrase in the symphony thereof. i hope to play it properly and with the proper expression and then onwards to the silence at the end of the piece which also must have it's proper due for the entire piece to be played well.

the world seems to want us to worship this small part of the music, the picture, life itself. i can't afford the romance. at most death, no matter how emotional the circumstances, is just another pain in the ass.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:35 pm

Death causes a deep emotional energy which can be harnessed to make music. For me all serious music is depressing. Happy music seems trivial and bland, goofy and childish. I don't think club music has any inherent spiritual value at all.

Commercial music is pablum.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:21 pm

gary:
ya, I guess its is but a facet of life. Which really puts things in perspective tho.. I think death is all mysterious and all, but perhaps so are all other facets.. and they probably all deserve the same sort of engagement and intrigue. Never thought of it that way.. which is kind of hard to put into practice.. many aspects seem so over done, mundane, and boring...

braincell:
well, I guess it depends what sort of happy you're talking about tho.. there certainly is a "happy" that's been commoditized.. happy like disneyland.. but happy like a beautiful sunset, is sort of different. Happy like after apologizing about a serious wrong you've done, and being understood.. that's a serious emotion. I hate plastic happiness tho.. it's like aspartame and saccharine. But the stuff sells! Like fat free, sugar free, guilt free, pancakes.

Also, about depressing music.. When there is a depressing piece that is written and executed well, at the end of the day, I'm not very depressed about it at all. I mean, it may sound depressing, but the effect of the piece on me certainly not depressing. So I was just wondering if you were referring to pieces that actually made you feel depressed, or pieces that sounded depressing, or were written so sound depressing as percieved by a typical listener. (but not necessarily you)

blah, just going thinking through in detail. I'm in a discussive mood I guess.heh.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:32 am

I fail to see a distinction between depressing music and music which makes you feel depressed. Maybe I'm not as complicated as you are. People who say they feel better after listening to sad music are fooling themselves. There is a beauty in it which you can appreciate though. When I see a good movie with a sad ending, I don't feel happy yet I enjoy it. I enjoy depression. If you were truly happy, you would not accomplish anything in your life because you would have no hunger to proceed.

Post by **garyb** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:34 am

i don't need to be depressed or accomplish anything to have lived my life well. accomplishments are cool, though.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:16 pm

braincell, that's an interesting viewpoint.

People who say they feel better after listening to sad music are fooling themselves. There is a beauty in it which you can appreciate though.

I guess you're right in a way. The immediate response may be sadness, or depression, or whatever emotion it is you conjur up internally from the music. And then for me, whatever the emotion, if the execution and creative enginuity si there, it sort of relieves me to see craftsmanship, thought, and premeditation. that's the part that makes me happy. Not flowers and skipping happy, but again, relief is probably a more accurate expression. A lot is being destroyed, and it's sort of like finding something alive in a pile of rubble. So that's mostly secondary.. it's a response to the music itself, not necessarily the emotion it was portraying.

When I see a good movie with a sad ending, I don't feel happy yet I enjoy it. I enjoy depression. If you were truly happy, you would not accomplish anything in your life because you would have no hunger to proceed.

I guess the general form of depression, or in this case, sort of a "valley before the hill" sort of thing is a necessity. I wouldn't call it depression personally, but I see what you mean. The "hunger" part I can really identify with. Yuppies living in yuppy bubble aren't necessarily the go-getters.. that sort of thing.

I feel a lot of frustration in many things that I do, and I think to a degree, I enjoy that. Sort of a different version of a adrenaline junkie I guess. I'm not sure if it's the "completion" part that I enjoy more, or the frustration part, which is sort of like a game. Definitely not a ha-ha, laugh out loud type fun, but it's the joy of challenging myself. And many times I fail and get frustrated, even depressed. But somehow I keep going.

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:32 am

Emotions all are controllable and very beneficial if one has the ability to channel their energy into positive results.

I rarely get angry, but as a youngster my hormones were extremely high and fluctuated daily. If I was angry..........I would go kick my 150lb. Everlast bag.

This outburst would then be channeled with a benficial purpose, causing a workout that would have been hard to keep pace with if I were to be in a happier mood.

When I was mentally frustrated I wouldn't compose, but rather practice some Chopin etc, The challenge of playing that music dynamically and correct would overwhelm both sides of my brain, and would quickly turn uncertain emotions into a benficial result.

When I was happy I would compose, and since I sucked so bad, this would make me mad, then I could workout again, and start all over.

It was the dogged continuing cycle I created that seemed to keep my mind free of sorrow and pain.

Death has been w/ me all of my life. When my Brother ( hero ) went MIA in Vietnam, I was young and so sad, and cried for months everyday.

We got to visit him in Subic Bay when he was wounded, I was about 9 years old,. He went back in the field after 2 months and that was the last time I ever looked into his eyes. I always tried to understand that it was a noble thing he did by enlisting, but I never really bought that idea. So many young men never came home to be buried. I feel for the families, as it is a sadness filled with anger and frustration.

Death never becomes a friend, but certainly is a companion.

I have learned to live with it, and when it comes for me, I'll be too busy trying to remember the happier moments in life.

firubbi · Post by **firubbi** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:27 am

my dad pass away on 1-11-2007. at 5am I got this call from hospital saying I need to go there. I tried not to panic…. It’s a wired felling …very wired… life suddenly change… his bed is empty for 8 months… his chair….I really don’t know how to express.. this is what we call truth.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:23 pm

Sorry to hear that. You too Kensuguro. Life can be very painful.

pseudojazzer · Post by **pseudojazzer** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:23 am

Sorry to hear of your losses.

In fact this is such a personal thread that i feel a little like walking on broken glass, but here's my 2 p..

The ancient greeks (Aristotle) believed in a process called catharsis. when watching a tragedy such as oedipus or whatever - the stories did not have a hollywood happy ending - and as we all know neither does life (at least not on the face of it!). However, he believed there was a moment of catharsis when the audience, through the experience of this tragedy would eventually feel uplifted, a sort of purging/clearing of their emotions. Maybe thats why we watch tragic soap operas - because we do in fact feel uplifted at the end - maybe not "happy" per se -but nevertheless we subject ourselves to these bad/hurtful emotions and yet we do say that we "enjoyed" the process - so something of relevance must have occurred.. something the greeks would call catharsis.

Personally i adhere to this train of thought - and i believe the same can happen in music. we may listen to a crushingly powerful piece and seemingly be subjecting ourselves to pain, but this is untrue IMHO, what we are doing is seeking catharsis and with it the joy of having our emotions expunged through experience of great drama/music/Art.

My aunt died last year and i wrote a simple acoustic piece for her on the guitar, and played it at her funeral. i had to be very strong to be able to play - i had to bottle up some kind of resistance to the emotions that everyone else was feeling and make sure i didn't loose it. i played the piece and almost as soon as i finished i broke down crying my guts out. All the strength i had had gone into the piece and afterwards i simply let go. Up until that moment i hadn't cried for her death - i had kinda transferred that energy into emotion in music rather than tangible, outward physical emotion, and it poured out! It was however an incredibly cathartic moment for me - personally i'm shite at expressing my emotions and music for me is a way of dealing with tough emotions, whether it be write a song or more likely some piece that helps me express myself - be it anger, sadness etc.. (or hey, there is always the blues right!!!!!)

If Schopenhauer was right (which he was

) and music really is the highest of art-forms, and indeed if Aristotle was right about experiencing catharsis through art (you guessed it, he was right as well

) then through music we can experience the most incredible purging of our souls - hey thats why we all do it right? .. well maybe not just that reason, but i feels pretty amazing when it happens.

The Blues is Alright .. repeat...The Blues is Alright ...
Play on brother...

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:42 am

interesting, so for pseudojazzer, the emotions went straight into the piece. I guess it's much more tangible for you. As I wrote, the emotion of death for me is very enigmatic, and I can't really get a good hold of it.

pseudojazzer · Post by **pseudojazzer** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:07 am

i think thats the amazing thing ken, i didn't try and get hold of it.. and i don't presume that i did for a minute, however i was writing the piece as a direct result of hearing the news - it was the motivation and the inspiration for the piece and in that fact it had a certain feeling and a certain truth. It was momentary though, and i've glad i captured it (or at least a tiny bit). if i hadn't caught it then and was asked to write the piece now it would certainly be enigmatic. i think that writing emotively in general must have a spontaneity to it, you can capture the emotion when you are feeling it, or if it resides in you strongly, otherwise it is elusive as you say.. personally when the emotion is death and tragedy i certainly hope that it is had to get hold of all the time otherwise all my music would be very morbid and so would i.. I imagine its a little like acting, some actors draw upon their experiences and share those with us when they perform, giving it a certain truth to the performance, but sometimes its very difficult to do that itf the memory is hazy etc..
Blimey i'm in a rambling mood, sorry, the simple answer is that its not more tangible for me, not now, but i tried to use the energy well when it was there (i thope i did).

skwawks · Post by **skwawks** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:35 pm

Well Ken when I'm feeling rational or talking to one of my old mates death comes up sometimes in the context of " maybe another 20 years left " . Thats a bit sobering really cos time passes faster the older you get and 20 years ago can seem like yesterday . I dont know.... I think the perspective gets broader or something and time compresses somehow ?
IMHO when you are 20 years old not much impacts emotionally at all unless it involves your direct physical comfort ..you are sort of still in the immortal zone and therefore inherently selfish and self centered and kind of disinterested in the suffering of others ,so I wouldn't worry about the disconnect on your dads death ,obviously it did impact and equally obviously you weren't in an emotional position to respond appropriately at THAT time . I have the idea that somehow we become ready to face what we have to face when the time comes to face it . I guess that's why sudden violent death is a bit tragic ,someone taken before they are ready . Everything else about death i.e. the sense that they are still around ...the feeling of a veil being lifted ... the comfort of imaging the presence of a parent ...I dont know ?? it s a very personal experience isn't it and you cant really say it's real ...and real is another can of worms isn't it

and yes I agree club and hip hop isn't really appropriate for those emotions

Paul

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