Hi all
I have just started using my P2 system at 96Khz/32 bits as I was recording some guitar for a mate, decided to do best quality. Works perfectly, can play files in Cool Edit 2000, and also Live 5.
But Sonar 7 will not play them at all, the drivers for it in the Audio panel say 16 bit Asio Creamware, with all the channels.
I did 32 bits as that is the internal depth of Scope, I record using VDAT, which as I am playing ambient/delayed guitar soundscapes, works fine. Hence the higher rate, for all the detail. Setting the Samplerate to 96 was no problem, no hiccups or whatever.
So are there any proper higher rate drivers for Scope?
I suspect Live is resampling the originals but haven't got around to checking this.
Any tips welcome.
Sonar 7 at 96/32
well, the number specs may just lead you on the wrong track...
like many others here, I also found VDAT the most clear and realistic recording of whatever happened in Scope. Played back exactly what I heard on the monitors before.
Regardless of samplerate and bitdepth. According to my own experience a 16bit VDAT will sound better than it's Windows counterpart.
I really didn't appreciate that finding (so it's not just my imagination or wishful thinking...) because it's rather inconvenient and way off 'regular' logic anway
You cannot 'hear' 32bit, as you cannot 24, even 20 will give you a hard time - let alone in a mix...
What you do hear indeed (leaving out the obvious hardware and circuit stuff) is the conversion from one system to another.
Something gets spoiled (or lost) when you pump that Scope channel to .wav and back.
Al least that was my impression, as I play out all stuff via the same Pulsar hardware.
I don't have Solar myself, and I'd like you to check the hypthesis yourself, but imho you don't gain any 'precision' with bit depth at all.
You'll loose it (the sheen of Scope as it has been called) as soon as you open the other driver
cheers, Tom
like many others here, I also found VDAT the most clear and realistic recording of whatever happened in Scope. Played back exactly what I heard on the monitors before.
Regardless of samplerate and bitdepth. According to my own experience a 16bit VDAT will sound better than it's Windows counterpart.
I really didn't appreciate that finding (so it's not just my imagination or wishful thinking...) because it's rather inconvenient and way off 'regular' logic anway
You cannot 'hear' 32bit, as you cannot 24, even 20 will give you a hard time - let alone in a mix...
What you do hear indeed (leaving out the obvious hardware and circuit stuff) is the conversion from one system to another.
Something gets spoiled (or lost) when you pump that Scope channel to .wav and back.
Al least that was my impression, as I play out all stuff via the same Pulsar hardware.
I don't have Solar myself, and I'd like you to check the hypthesis yourself, but imho you don't gain any 'precision' with bit depth at all.
You'll loose it (the sheen of Scope as it has been called) as soon as you open the other driver
cheers, Tom
Hi
Yes VDAT is great but that just shows the age of the spec. Everyone needs to record Scope for DAWs not ADAT!
I don't fancy converting all my files to 16 bit - that seems a bit long winded. Does Sonar work at 24 / 32 bit with Scope? Is this is Scope Asio drivers issue?
So why can't Sonar deal with them? I pay a lot of money for Sonar and it is supposed to be 64 bit etc... their forum is no use.
Anyone have an answer from the Scope tech side? are there Asio 24 bit drivers for Sonar (I am assuming it can do the 96khz rate).
Thanks
Yes VDAT is great but that just shows the age of the spec. Everyone needs to record Scope for DAWs not ADAT!
I don't fancy converting all my files to 16 bit - that seems a bit long winded. Does Sonar work at 24 / 32 bit with Scope? Is this is Scope Asio drivers issue?
So why can't Sonar deal with them? I pay a lot of money for Sonar and it is supposed to be 64 bit etc... their forum is no use.
Anyone have an answer from the Scope tech side? are there Asio 24 bit drivers for Sonar (I am assuming it can do the 96khz rate).
Thanks
you probably misunderstood me completelygeoffd99 wrote: ...I don't fancy converting all my files to 16 bit - that seems a bit long winded. Does Sonar work at 24 / 32 bit with Scope? Is this is Scope Asio drivers issue? ...
I mentioned the 16 bit version only to show that bit depth doesn't matter in this context - 16, 24, 32 bit in native Scope recording (which is VDAT) will just sound better than whatever 16, 24 or 32 bit you do in X86 coded processing.
Don't ask me why - it's just an empirical finding, but obviously I'm not the only one.
Everyone who uses VDAT confirms the improvement of sound, as almost everyone will report the mixing engine of Scope delivers more pleasing results than most sequencer implementations.
I did not expect that a 16bit File recorded in VDAT to sound different when played back with (say) Reaper through an ASIO channel.
But that seems to be exactly what's happening - the sound looses definition.
So if you want to preserve most of the original recording, don't rely on your sequencer. At least (imho) you don't gain anything in Seqencer 32 bit.
I'm certainly biased terribly against Sonar, as they effortlessly achieve to talk twice the amount of bs Steinberg does (mho...) - tried their sythesizer wonder recently which turns out a lame piece of poo. Just bla, bla, bla about bits, bits and numbers - but does it sound good ?
cheers, Tom
I would prefer to mix then in VDAT. SInce this is a multitracker, is it possible to add tracks from elsewhere... or would it be a case of re-recording onto it (slots 3 to 
and then shunting things up and down etc, how to do volume edits etc...
I think this discussion of using VDAT is on here elsewhere.
I don't use Sonar much, as I have been using Live for creative stuff; I used Sonar for some multitrack recording (not midi) and since it was outputting into Scope, was OK (that was at 16/44).
I can play 24 bit files out of Sonar using Scope 24 bit io but not 32 bit. Are there any 32 bit Scope drivers?
So my intention was just to use it for multiple streams out, but at the hgher rate from VDAT.
It is a shame that Scope doesn't have a simple multitrack editor - ie VDAT but easy to use - since all Scope people prefer the original sound. Wasn't there a stereo one for film people -Cut Pro or something?
Or am I missing something about VDAT - ie, can the 'tapes' it creates be edited independently, and still be picked up by VDAT (I must experiment later).
Since Cool Edit 2000 plays back the 96/32 files OK. There is a multitracker in that apparently but I only have the stereo version.
Anyway I will use 24 bit instead and dither th efiles down, and from now on record in VDAT at 24 bit.
Thanks for the discussion.
and then shunting things up and down etc, how to do volume edits etc... I think this discussion of using VDAT is on here elsewhere.
I don't use Sonar much, as I have been using Live for creative stuff; I used Sonar for some multitrack recording (not midi) and since it was outputting into Scope, was OK (that was at 16/44).
I can play 24 bit files out of Sonar using Scope 24 bit io but not 32 bit. Are there any 32 bit Scope drivers?
So my intention was just to use it for multiple streams out, but at the hgher rate from VDAT.
It is a shame that Scope doesn't have a simple multitrack editor - ie VDAT but easy to use - since all Scope people prefer the original sound. Wasn't there a stereo one for film people -Cut Pro or something?
Or am I missing something about VDAT - ie, can the 'tapes' it creates be edited independently, and still be picked up by VDAT (I must experiment later).
Since Cool Edit 2000 plays back the 96/32 files OK. There is a multitracker in that apparently but I only have the stereo version.
Anyway I will use 24 bit instead and dither th efiles down, and from now on record in VDAT at 24 bit.
Thanks for the discussion.
well, I haven't really though about this in depth, but maybe you can develope some ideas from it...
Software like Samplitude doesn't really work on the 'edited' files themselves, but uses the position information to copy data into it's working buffer and then apply processing which may be written to either temporary storage or (if you decide to do so) a new file.
It's basically the 'classic' edit-decision-list approach, as known from (video) tape recorders. Magix calls it 'object-oriented'.
Afaik you can demo the software and even better some 'older' versions are very affordable - there may even exist (completely legal) free copies that were sent with magazine CDs. Memory may betray me on the latter, but I remember having read about it on the net.
VDAT is pretty bitchy at syncing issues (imho), it will reveal any flaw in your setup.
It's a learning curve for non-Adat experienced folks.
You can edit the tapes in an external editor, either unload them manually or possibly it does that automatically if you choose 'switch to external editor' (never tried that). Some software lets you open the files in read only mode.
cheers, Tom
Software like Samplitude doesn't really work on the 'edited' files themselves, but uses the position information to copy data into it's working buffer and then apply processing which may be written to either temporary storage or (if you decide to do so) a new file.
It's basically the 'classic' edit-decision-list approach, as known from (video) tape recorders. Magix calls it 'object-oriented'.
Afaik you can demo the software and even better some 'older' versions are very affordable - there may even exist (completely legal) free copies that were sent with magazine CDs. Memory may betray me on the latter, but I remember having read about it on the net.
VDAT is pretty bitchy at syncing issues (imho), it will reveal any flaw in your setup.
It's a learning curve for non-Adat experienced folks.
You can edit the tapes in an external editor, either unload them manually or possibly it does that automatically if you choose 'switch to external editor' (never tried that). Some software lets you open the files in read only mode.
cheers, Tom
I mentioned that free samplitude Tom but it requires a registration at samplitude to run it and I dont know if they'll do it a long time after the release . The good news is that after a recommendation from Gary I bought Magix music studio 12 deluxe to run on this machine as a bit of a scratch pad so I dont have to run the muse machine all the time and I really think it's sensational , and incredibly cheap . I got mine [the current version ]for about 50 bucks 
on ebay but from a shop I think it's under a hundred . It sounds GOOD with a nice little suite of Inst. and a lite sample tank and even a little mastering setup . I can't recommend it highly enough ..I really cant
Paul
on ebay but from a shop I think it's under a hundred . It sounds GOOD with a nice little suite of Inst. and a lite sample tank and even a little mastering setup . I can't recommend it highly enough ..I really cant Paul
I am just looking at Reaper which is 64 bit internal, same as Sonar, and cheap/free.
I have 24 bit i/o, why are there not 32 bit i/o drivers in Scope?
The 24 bit drivers in Sonar play the 32 bit files so I don't have to convert - is Sonar truncating / dithering them automatically?
Anyway, presumably summing in Sonar or Reaper at 64bits is more accurate than summing through the Scope mixers at 32 bits.
Although seems funny to convert 32 > 24 > 64 > 16 for final wav. Then mp3...
I have 24 bit i/o, why are there not 32 bit i/o drivers in Scope?
The 24 bit drivers in Sonar play the 32 bit files so I don't have to convert - is Sonar truncating / dithering them automatically?
Anyway, presumably summing in Sonar or Reaper at 64bits is more accurate than summing through the Scope mixers at 32 bits.
Although seems funny to convert 32 > 24 > 64 > 16 for final wav. Then mp3...
reaper's great, but not as full featured as Sonar.geoffd99 wrote:I am just looking at Reaper which is 64 bit internal, same as Sonar, and cheap/free.
I have 24 bit i/o, why are there not 32 bit i/o drivers in Scope?
The 24 bit drivers in Sonar play the 32 bit files so I don't have to convert - is Sonar truncating / dithering them automatically?
Anyway, presumably summing in Sonar or Reaper at 64bits is more accurate than summing through the Scope mixers at 32 bits.
Although seems funny to convert 32 > 24 > 64 > 16 for final wav. Then mp3...
there are no 32bit drivers because until very recently there were only 1 or 2 32bit apps.
yes, Sonar is truncating, probably not a problem, ever.
reaper's summing (on heavy track usage) is not superior. Scope internal processing in the mixers is 48 or 52bit. Reaper is not necessarily summing 64bit either, 64bit operation refers to how the program is interfacing with the OS. actual internal operation may be anything, not that it matters. the algorythm is as important as the bitdepth. just shopping by numbers assures you of nothing. getting the best sound is more a result of using the best techniques than it's about using the best gear, but the gear DOES have a big influence. it can definitely make things easier or harder.....
