http://www.myspace.com/romaingavras
Added the directors myspace page as the youtube clip was a copyright infrigment. this topic is about the video titled "justice stress"
stress
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next to nothing
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stress
Last edited by next to nothing on Sat May 17, 2008 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Could someone tell me the point of the video? (I'm not commenting on the song, which I found boring but at least not offensive). Is it a 'powerful depiction of rage' or other such utter wank?
Honestly, I don't see how this video is useful or entertaining, let alone 'art', as I saw in one of the yootoob comments. It seemed like the artistic equivalent of having a shit. Maybe watch something like 'La Haine' or 'City of God' (Cidade de Deus) if you want to see something interesting. Even something like Romper Stomper or Man Bites Dog has more point to it than this.
Honestly, I don't see how this video is useful or entertaining, let alone 'art', as I saw in one of the yootoob comments. It seemed like the artistic equivalent of having a shit. Maybe watch something like 'La Haine' or 'City of God' (Cidade de Deus) if you want to see something interesting. Even something like Romper Stomper or Man Bites Dog has more point to it than this.
glorifying violence like that is really foul. people i know die over that kind of stuff. i'd have to kill those boys without hesitation if i saw them going about their business in my 'hood, tragedy after tragedy....poor, stupid, ignorant kids who believe that life works like that because they've had the worst teachers.....petal wrote:So you are saying those people behind and in the video should be killed?
I'm not sure I'm following you here gary.
it's disgusting that a society would discourage good people from carrying a weapon, and glorify youth behaving like that. what a path to horror. the ideas behind a video like that is designed to desensitize people to that horror. it's not the music itself, nor the images alone that i'm disgusted by. it's the entire package and it's irresponsible dissemination. what a horrible program for a youth to be running on....
as i said, the mark of Cain is prominently displayed in nearly every frame. i doubt this is unintentional. i doubt the youth pictured understand that or even know what the mark is. that's why the moneyman for the vid and the director are my first target. i don't want to have to put down some malfunctioning human like the one's shown in the vid(all human life is valuable) just because of bad teachers.
i wouldn't just attack ANYONE. this is just reasoning out an an emotional response.
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siriusbliss
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even if these were all actors, most kids watching this can't distinguish from reality or context. In essence promoting violence against the innocent. Cowardice.garyb wrote:glorifying violence like that is really foul. people i know die over that kind of stuff. i'd have to kill those boys without hesitation if i saw them going about their business in my 'hood, tragedy after tragedy....poor, stupid, ignorant kids who believe that life works like that because they've had the worst teachers.....petal wrote:So you are saying those people behind and in the video should be killed?
I'm not sure I'm following you here gary.
it's disgusting that a society would discourage good people from carrying a weapon, and glorify youth behaving like that. what a path to horror. the ideas behind a video like that is designed to desensitize people to that horror. it's not the music itself, nor the images alone that i'm disgusted by. it's the entire package and it's irresponsible dissemination. what a horrible program for a youth to be running on....
as i said, the mark of Cain is prominently displayed in nearly every frame. i doubt this is unintentional. i doubt the youth pictured understand that or even know what the mark is. that's why the moneyman for the vid and the director are my first target. i don't want to have to put down some malfunctioning human like the one's shown in the vid(all human life is valuable) just because of bad teachers.
i wouldn't just attack ANYONE. this is just reasoning out an an emotional response.
Oh, and the music is boring dronal brain entrainment IMO.
Greg
Well, I guess that it always depends which eyes looks at it.
I didn't see this as a gloryfication of violence, more as a picture of "the state of things", at which I found it very powerful.
I don't appreciate violence, and saw this more as a comment on a symptom of society - again, it's powerful at that.
Just as pictures from a war is awful, they can still be powerful, which is why they need to be published in some situations.
I recall the gloryfication of the first war in Irac and the coverage on TV: television shots in the nose of laserguided missiles etc... Fascinating to watch for the sheer destruction in the pictures, and at the same time, in it's own subtle and unintended way showing the world how the mind works of the people behind it all, which is propably why we didn't see these kinds of video in the sequel...
Is it art? - I think so yes. The video production was good craftmanship and leaves you with a strong impression of something we all know is happening out there, but maybe tend to forget.
Art doesn't have to be something you like.
I didn't see this as a gloryfication of violence, more as a picture of "the state of things", at which I found it very powerful.
I don't appreciate violence, and saw this more as a comment on a symptom of society - again, it's powerful at that.
Just as pictures from a war is awful, they can still be powerful, which is why they need to be published in some situations.
I recall the gloryfication of the first war in Irac and the coverage on TV: television shots in the nose of laserguided missiles etc... Fascinating to watch for the sheer destruction in the pictures, and at the same time, in it's own subtle and unintended way showing the world how the mind works of the people behind it all, which is propably why we didn't see these kinds of video in the sequel...
Is it art? - I think so yes. The video production was good craftmanship and leaves you with a strong impression of something we all know is happening out there, but maybe tend to forget.
Art doesn't have to be something you like.
that clip is for nothing but inciting more of the same. there's no social commentary there. evil triumphs and even kills the photo crew. this is nothing but gratuitous porn. THERE"S A REASON THAT THE MARK OF CAIN IS IN NEARLY EVERY FRAME. it's absolute hypocracy to hate violence and love this. it appeals to nothing but bloodlust, as i said, this film is to life what porn is to sex, nothing but a cheapening and a vile distortion which can be entertaining but ultimately lowers the viewer from human to monster.
looking at this, i can see why Europe is the home of the ghetto. ghetto kids will see this and know how to behave. i've seen it first hand. this is part of the making of psychopaths and it really has no other purpose. didn't you see how good people were absolutely powerless before these kids? they are demonstrating the power of absolute will to dominate and showing how hopeless it is to oppose that force, nothing else. it's easy to sit in a nice, controlled suburban environment with nice people who have plenty of everything and get intellectual about "art", but don't avoid the film maker's intentions...
and as to the glorification of war on tv, who owns the tv channels and news services but the mutinationals and banks who fund and finace the wars? of COURSE they're glorifying violence! they even have words for the process being used by that glorification. it's called "desensitization". every generation finds psychopathy more and more normal and acceptable. it was Aleister Crowley who said that the best way to make power is through blood sacrifice and that the most effective bloood sacrifice is a human sacrifice. the thing is that the human must be shown what is happening to him and he has to have a chance to object or it's not a sacrifice, just murder. now, when a soldier goes to die in the battlefields and spill his sacred blood all over the sanctified groud, what do they say about it? they say that that soldier committed the "ultimate act of sacrifice" for his people, beliefs, country, etc.. to claim to hate violence yet to refuse to understand this is also hypocracy or at least cognative dissonace, doublethink......
it's interesting how we find violence acceptable if it's committed via proxy....
petal, when you say "Just as pictures from a war is awful, they can still be powerful, which is why they need to be published in some situations.", i agree with you. i agree with much of your post. i just don't think that this bit of work is all that...i will say this much positive about the clip. it awakens in me that basic primal male urge to defend the weak and innocent members of the tribe in me. i don't like violence either, but i'd have no problem killing those young thugs to protect the rest of the tribe/community....
looking at this, i can see why Europe is the home of the ghetto. ghetto kids will see this and know how to behave. i've seen it first hand. this is part of the making of psychopaths and it really has no other purpose. didn't you see how good people were absolutely powerless before these kids? they are demonstrating the power of absolute will to dominate and showing how hopeless it is to oppose that force, nothing else. it's easy to sit in a nice, controlled suburban environment with nice people who have plenty of everything and get intellectual about "art", but don't avoid the film maker's intentions...
and as to the glorification of war on tv, who owns the tv channels and news services but the mutinationals and banks who fund and finace the wars? of COURSE they're glorifying violence! they even have words for the process being used by that glorification. it's called "desensitization". every generation finds psychopathy more and more normal and acceptable. it was Aleister Crowley who said that the best way to make power is through blood sacrifice and that the most effective bloood sacrifice is a human sacrifice. the thing is that the human must be shown what is happening to him and he has to have a chance to object or it's not a sacrifice, just murder. now, when a soldier goes to die in the battlefields and spill his sacred blood all over the sanctified groud, what do they say about it? they say that that soldier committed the "ultimate act of sacrifice" for his people, beliefs, country, etc.. to claim to hate violence yet to refuse to understand this is also hypocracy or at least cognative dissonace, doublethink......
it's interesting how we find violence acceptable if it's committed via proxy....
petal, when you say "Just as pictures from a war is awful, they can still be powerful, which is why they need to be published in some situations.", i agree with you. i agree with much of your post. i just don't think that this bit of work is all that...i will say this much positive about the clip. it awakens in me that basic primal male urge to defend the weak and innocent members of the tribe in me. i don't like violence either, but i'd have no problem killing those young thugs to protect the rest of the tribe/community....
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next to nothing
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ok, i could really quote any post you made here, but i choose this one as it makes most sense.garyb wrote:mark of cain.
kill them, dead.
with guns.
that stuff is no joke in my neighborhood....the director is the first one dead.
Its a provoking video, no doubt about it. Im not going into a guns debate on this one, but really, you have some strange emotions going on.
Maybe the "mark of Cain" you see is maybe the key to understand the whole issue this video is about (and im ofcourse talking about the "Book of Genisis", not some secret group of wealthy powermongers).
As you are a well informed guy i am pretty suprised to see how shallow you are regarding media. By your logic, every director who made a movie about WWII displaying a swastika should be killed (with guns ofcourse). Its nothing secret here, as you allready have stated, the mark of Cain is not exactly hidden in a cunning way to mislead anyone, is it.
And to everyone complaining that this movie is "promoting violence against the innocent", glorifying violence etc.: Please enlighten me as to how you find this video glorifying anything!
"that clip is for nothing but inciting more of the same. there's no social commentary there. evil triumphs and even kills the photo crew. this is nothing but gratuitous porn. THERE"S A REASON THAT THE MARK OF CAIN IS IN NEARLY EVERY FRAME. it's absolute hypocracy to hate violence and love this. it appeals to nothing but bloodlust, as i said, this film is to life what porn is to sex, nothing but a cheapening and a vile distortion which can be entertaining but ultimately lowers the viewer from human to monster.
"
Have a look at whats happening in the french "nice, controlled suburban environment" before you say that there is no social commentary here.
Art isnt about being beutiful. its about emotions, isnt it?
And i dont see how killing a director (with or without guns) for making a video you dont like makes the world a better place. Your incompetance to see beyond pictures absolutley shows that you are in no position at all to make judgements like that.
I sincerly hope someone takes your gun away (if you have one) on the basis of you making pretty disturbing death threats.
see this is how someone is painted as incompetent for normal emotions.
I MADE THE ARTISTIC COMMENT.
my point, once again,since there are those who willfully refuse to communicate and only speak in talking points, is that the main purpose of that video is to GLORIFY thuggery.
this is not commentary, it's an invitation to the youth. as i said, it's porn, it's not for young minds. my anger towards it is the NATURAL and NORMAL response of a male who sees his fellow humans threatened. i hate bullies who prey upon the weak and defenseless, but YOU next to nothing(appropriate name for the subject), would defend absolute psychopaths and this kennite tale of the exercise of will. you would disarm me, but you will admire demons who eventually even turn on and kill their allies, the film crew. nice.
the ghetto depicted and the people in it were created willingly. if those who made the ghetto(and Europe IS the inventor of the ghetto) wished it to be different, it would be. that was a BIG budget production(or the violence was real, even worse). money doesn't get spent like that without purpose. the forces that made the ghetto also made the film, so what's the statement being made?
back way with your "death theats". the only death threat is that film itself. that video is meant to empower the psycho and terrorize, shock and disable the commoners(the typical victims in the film) that might come in contact with it.
i'm reminded of the hunter/killers in Zardoz......this is the beginning of the creation of that social class.
just my opinion on it, it's not like i'm jumping on a plane to go out there guns blazing, i'm just trying to describe my disgust. you like the group, next to nothing, that's your business. maybe you hate those that don't love the same culture you do, that's fine. just please stop that passive/agressive talk of "pretty disturbing death threats", that's so intellectually weak of you to hold up a bit of filth like this as art, and then censor my poetry and prose for being too violent or provocative.
yes, i'm making a point.
I MADE THE ARTISTIC COMMENT.
my point, once again,since there are those who willfully refuse to communicate and only speak in talking points, is that the main purpose of that video is to GLORIFY thuggery.
this is not commentary, it's an invitation to the youth. as i said, it's porn, it's not for young minds. my anger towards it is the NATURAL and NORMAL response of a male who sees his fellow humans threatened. i hate bullies who prey upon the weak and defenseless, but YOU next to nothing(appropriate name for the subject), would defend absolute psychopaths and this kennite tale of the exercise of will. you would disarm me, but you will admire demons who eventually even turn on and kill their allies, the film crew. nice.
the ghetto depicted and the people in it were created willingly. if those who made the ghetto(and Europe IS the inventor of the ghetto) wished it to be different, it would be. that was a BIG budget production(or the violence was real, even worse). money doesn't get spent like that without purpose. the forces that made the ghetto also made the film, so what's the statement being made?
back way with your "death theats". the only death threat is that film itself. that video is meant to empower the psycho and terrorize, shock and disable the commoners(the typical victims in the film) that might come in contact with it.
i'm reminded of the hunter/killers in Zardoz......this is the beginning of the creation of that social class.
just my opinion on it, it's not like i'm jumping on a plane to go out there guns blazing, i'm just trying to describe my disgust. you like the group, next to nothing, that's your business. maybe you hate those that don't love the same culture you do, that's fine. just please stop that passive/agressive talk of "pretty disturbing death threats", that's so intellectually weak of you to hold up a bit of filth like this as art, and then censor my poetry and prose for being too violent or provocative.
yes, i'm making a point.
It made an opposite impression to me, completely. All I've got from it is a sense of sadness related to the tendency to put the dust under the carpet typical of our societies of "consumers" that don't have to be disturbed while shopping.garyb wrote:that clip is for nothing but inciting more of the same. there's no social commentary there. evil triumphs and even kills the photo crew. this is nothing but gratuitous porn. THERE"S A REASON THAT THE MARK OF CAIN IS IN NEARLY EVERY FRAME. .
I don't think that our individual morality is enough to put us in a safe place. There are some social issues which cry for attention and need social measures. Our individual morality is an empty concept if we don't put some resources in ensuring, even by police force, that all the young people get an education and are followed from their tender age. Because jail is the perfect school of crime and corruption, and a scared dog bites also the hand that gives food.
I'm always more keen to find solutions to problems and basically trusting the human potential, rather than making abstract claims of justice, which just stick where they are, like the white paint on our conscience.
This is what this video has made me to think. Those kids are also represented as uncool and vile, strong with the weak and ready to escape from any confrontation with real life and a whole part of their humanity. I think that this video is not only disturbing for us, because it recalls our social responsibilities, but also for those kids, because it reveals clearly their own weakness. If so, and this is just my opinion, I think that it's a very positive work, and I also understand a bit some uncool reactions to it...it reveals parts of us that we don't like.
My first reaction is to think "Why?", and that is what we should do, with honesty, because the more we only treat the symptoms, the stronger become the pathogens. Just look around.
for most of you, i think this stuff is pretty abstract, but i live THERE. this stuff doesn't make those kids feel their weakness. it makes them feel that aggressively following their sense of will is their path to power. they are imitating the religion of the elite and images like that show that theyu are on the right track. for the people who live in such places, there is NOTHING being swept under the rug, it's all in yo face.
the literal mark of Cain is in the film, everywhere. the biblical story can be true, false or whatever, but the folks in charge, know what the mark is about and what it means. i doubt most of the participants of this little drama know about such things, just like most here don't know what i'm talking about, but the art director did....this is no grassroots production. there is major funding here, regardless of any "artist's" salary....
the clip is the pathogen. it's a self replicating thought virus.
the literal mark of Cain is in the film, everywhere. the biblical story can be true, false or whatever, but the folks in charge, know what the mark is about and what it means. i doubt most of the participants of this little drama know about such things, just like most here don't know what i'm talking about, but the art director did....this is no grassroots production. there is major funding here, regardless of any "artist's" salary....
the clip is the pathogen. it's a self replicating thought virus.
Sorry but if this video had a positive influence on me and made me feel my responsibilities as a citizen, this is a non-wanted accidental effect, while the hypothetical (that I don't recognize as real) effect of making these kids worst than what they are already is wanted instead?garyb wrote:for most of you, i think this stuff is pretty abstract, but i live THERE. this stuff doesn't make those kids feel their weakness. it makes them feel that aggressively following their sense of will is their path to power. they are imitating the religion of the elite and images like that show that theyu are on the right track. for the people who live in such places, there is NOTHING being swept under the rug, it's all in yo face.
the literal mark of Cain is in the film, everywhere. the biblical story can be true, false or whatever, but the folks in charge, know what the mark is about and what it means. i doubt most of the participants of this little drama know about such things, just like most here don't know what i'm talking about, but the art director did....this is no grassroots production. there is major funding here, regardless of any "artist's" salary....
the clip is the pathogen. it's a self replicating thought virus.
I don't think that we are in presence of marks of Cain or whatsoever, we just have a work that describes reality, in a way that I see as genuinely concerned about it.
That reality is not caused by these works, it is caused by the sensation of having no future to work for. That is much stronger than anything else.
I just can't understand the "it's art even if you don't like it" or "art isn't meant to be beautiful, but emotional" sentiments.
Firstly, you shouldn't even dabble in art if you can't handle criticism or strong responses.
Secondly, my main problem with this 'art' is that it is totally lacking in any substance, intelligence or insight.
The total lack of any point in the storyline only leads me to think that it's a voyeuristic glorification of anti-social idiocy and violence. Yes there are problems with consumerism and sheep-like behaviour in the population, but this video does not have any answers or any relevance at all - it's absolutely random and stupid. Again, it's the artistic equivalent of having a shit. Mundane and carrying a foul stench. Nothing at all of any interest to humanity.
Accepting mediocrity is the biggest trap to fall into with art. This video is symptomatic of the disintegration of depth and intelligence within western culture, something that depresses me profoundly. I don't care if I offend people by saying what I think - I'm certainly not going to stand by and accept these weak artistic frauds.
Firstly, you shouldn't even dabble in art if you can't handle criticism or strong responses.
Secondly, my main problem with this 'art' is that it is totally lacking in any substance, intelligence or insight.
The total lack of any point in the storyline only leads me to think that it's a voyeuristic glorification of anti-social idiocy and violence. Yes there are problems with consumerism and sheep-like behaviour in the population, but this video does not have any answers or any relevance at all - it's absolutely random and stupid. Again, it's the artistic equivalent of having a shit. Mundane and carrying a foul stench. Nothing at all of any interest to humanity.
Accepting mediocrity is the biggest trap to fall into with art. This video is symptomatic of the disintegration of depth and intelligence within western culture, something that depresses me profoundly. I don't care if I offend people by saying what I think - I'm certainly not going to stand by and accept these weak artistic frauds.
Art is subjective. If it contains or not a message this only depends from the fact that someone reads it. If many think that it does have a meaning and an artistic value a work becomes conventionally "art". If different people give a different interpretation of a work the problem is simply of a cultural difference, not better or worst in any case but just a matter of language. I think that only subjectivity can explain the different opinions on any controversial form of art...I might add that there is no art which hasn't been controversial. Pollock, Picasso, Warhol, Burroughs, Mapplethorpe...they all have been defined more or less like this video, disturbing, mediocre, dangerous and even satanic.
A cultural difference can be, for example, if art has the purpose of teaching or unveiling, it has to be didactic or cathartic....we are not the first here to show those differences, it's a debate gone through many centuries. I tend more towards the second definitions.
A cultural difference can be, for example, if art has the purpose of teaching or unveiling, it has to be didactic or cathartic....we are not the first here to show those differences, it's a debate gone through many centuries. I tend more towards the second definitions.
Catharsis is all well and good. But I really don't see the point if it doesn't bring anything new to the table. It just ends up as self-indulgent masturbation. Or just taking a big smelly dump. Keep the shit in your own bathroom is what I'm saying. If you choose to display your creation to the world, it better have some value, something new to offer - not necessarily didactic. Otherwise, people who aren't fooled by the slick photography and shallow, sledgehammer emotions are going to rip it apart, and rightly so.