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Cochise
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Post by Cochise »

I don't get your point Garyb.

In first instance I'm far from thinking that the mass, however scared by impending catastrophes, could be so easily influenced to the point to allow "high life standards" to the elite only.
But I'm on the advice that, getting rid of one's own skeleton in the cupboard, making the people more aware of what they're facing with, it would became easier to make a solid front against the injustice.

garyb wrote:it's easy to see how a man like Hitler could rise to power. everyone agreed with his ideas of efficiency, mandatory physical fitness and health care, mandatory attendance to state run schools(laws which where just upheld this week in Deutschland), the abuse of a boogieman, and the euthanasia of the crippled, dying, insane and retarded. efficiency over humanity, what a disgusting, immoral, and repulsive system.
The point that the nazism make me vomit, can't make me hate the concept of efficiency, physical fitness, health care and all the positive things mandatorially pursued by dictatorships.
There are positive elements that our culture is anyway going to neglect IMHO.
To desire the enhancement of the positiveness of the concept of these elements in the culture has nothing to do with nazism.
As well as criminal methodology used pursuing their aim by diverted branches of international organizations can't convince me that is a bad thing to spread the family planning culture in the countries having excessive birthrate.

garyb wrote:the solution isn't a global taxing system and organization of control over people. the solution isn't putting the jerks who made the problem in charge of the solution.

I'm instead on the advice that kind of global taxing system could be a discussion point, talking about badly allocated resources.
As a first step, international regulations as regards the fiscal paradises could really help lot of national economies.
The jerks who made the problem have to be in charge of the right solution, since they are not independent of the people that WANT right solutions.
At least till when nazist methodologies will not be massively applied everywhere.
Just the people has to be aware that SOLUTIONS ARE NEEDED, as soon as the people has to be aware of WHAT WHO'S IN OFFICE IS DOING.

Evil does exists. Everywhere in the time and in the space battles had been fought. Oligarchies succeeded to democracies and vice versa down the centuries lane.

The only kind of control I need is kind of warranty for my rights.
Control against abuse of power, exploitation , deprivation of human rights (living in a healthy environment, eating healthy foods should be human rights...)
Control applied following the standards of a sound justice.
Last edited by Cochise on Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

Cochise, those who would run the taxation process have already proven themselves to be unworthy of trust. they are the ones who engineered the current inequitable system. a global tax will only entrench the current power system.

efficiency etc, is all fine and good, but not to the point of the loss of humanity. the point was that good and nice ideas are used to promote tyrrany and that good people will promote and protect tyrrany in the name of good ideas. i'd rather live in a place where the trains never ran on time, the government was terribly inneficient and human beings were respected as vital and family, than to live in a super efficient sterile world, where human life is no more important than cattle. Nazism IS efficiency. Mousollini said that "Fascism is more properly called Corporatism, as it's a blend of corporate and state power". corporatism is all about PROFIT and EFFICIENCY.


stardust, please stop putting words in my mouth. i never said that the power structure must be undone before we can do anything to make the world a nicer, mmore sensible place. what i said was to stop paying attention to what the power structure says and the current agenda that they are pushing, no matter how nice it seems. i'm not claiming to "own" the truth, but if i see that the color of the sky is blue, i'll call it blue even if everyone else has been hypnotized into seeing green. as a matter of fact, i think that there's a LOT that each of us can do to make the world better, and i hope that we do those things. the first order of business is to not consider one person to be more valuable than another, regardless of social standing , intelligence, beauty or other confusion. the second is to ignore EVERYTHING on the tv, no matter how educational... :lol: the idea of personal responsibility is dead on the mark, but personal responsibility does NOT equate with doing what the experts say you should. we "consume" much it's true. but who among us uses $30,000 worth of electricity for their home in a month? the ones who need to cut down on their consumption FIRST are not the common folk, who are just trying to make it through the day.

what i'm saying is neither clever nor complex, and it certainly does NOT belong to me. it's simple and obvious to anyone who truthfully examines the system and that's regardless of if it's pleasant to look at or convienient.
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BingoTheClowno
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Post by BingoTheClowno »

garyb wrote:
you continue to misrepresent what i am saying and condescend with your "elite conspiracy" brush off.
Actually, Stardust is right with this aspect. You are constantly bringing up these comical conspiracy theories. For example you claimed that UN wants to enslave us, HAARP is used to "secretly" alter weather on Earth (ignoring the fact that the facility is open to public visits), Illuminati control the world, Bohemian Groove fantasy and so on.
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zangsta
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Post by zangsta »

[quote="BingoTheClowno"][quote="garyb"]
For example you claimed that UN wants to enslave us, HAARP is used to "secretly" alter weather on Earth (ignoring the fact that the facility is open to public visits)..quote]

And what will a public visit show that tells the visitors that it´s not used for nefarious purposes....??????????

Google for chemtrails and haarp and se what gives...
I think there´s certainly indicators of foul play here, look up Tom Bearden, and his work on weather control, scalar waves...

Jörgen
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BingoTheClowno
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Post by BingoTheClowno »

zangsta wrote:
And what will a public visit show that tells the visitors that it´s not used for nefarious purposes....??????????



Jörgen
Well, it is open to the public as well as for the experts to study. I mean, do you trust anybody?
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zangsta
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Post by zangsta »

BingoTheClowno wrote:
zangsta wrote:
Well, it is open to the public as well as for the experts to study. I mean, do you trust anybody?
Well what can be studied from the outside, as a visitor, expert or not ?
They send frequencies, signals. Invisible... What HAARP-facility are you refering to. btw.
There´s a few actually, the one in Alaska is the one known to most.
And no. I don´t see any reason to trust these people at all.
The powermongers and moneymen cant be trusted.
I know people I trust, have many trusted friends, and I can sometimes feel
what people I can trust. At a long distance. JimmyV is one of those.

Jörgen
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

anyone who will call the bohemian grove a fantasy is either ignorant or purposely blind.

I OWN A MEMBERSHIP ROSTER AS WELL AS THE 100YEAR ANNIVERSARY ANNALS OF THE CLUB.

the UN Agenda 21 documents are available to all, just be sure to read further than the nice sounding opening.

are you denying that a single bank controls ALL the currencies and ALL the earth's resources? because if you are, then agfain, you're either ignorant or a provacatuer. the records are available to all.

HAARP is available and open for all to study? :lol: a DOD operation? that's a lie, and as zangsta said, there is more than one installation. the alaska install is just the most well known.
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Post by Cochise »

Sorry garyb, but personally I don't use to lose my humanity trying to do the best I can when I work. Unless I'm excessively stressed (but I could be stressed even working excessively and badly).

For sure such dictatorships mandatorially required and exploited efficiency, but, don't you try yourself to be efficient when you work?

It's different thing when someone MUST be efficient without having an adequate remuneration... or must be efficient working at things he consider bad things..
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

:lol:

see? this is the kind of miscommunication that exists and the kind of confusion that is used. who's against working efficiently, or at least doing a good job?

this whole convoluted conversation that is spanning so many threads is a perfect example of the orwellian principles of newspeak in action. not only have the vocabularies been reduced, but the meanings are subtly different between people, even generation to generation to an end where good means bad and bad means good, and so real action is almost impossible.
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BingoTheClowno
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Post by BingoTheClowno »

garyb wrote: the UN Agenda 21 documents are available to all, just be sure to read further than the nice sounding opening.
No one is interested in YOUR interpretation of those documents!
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

them.

have you EVER read the DOD documents on the technology?
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

BingoTheClowno wrote:
garyb wrote: the UN Agenda 21 documents are available to all, just be sure to read further than the nice sounding opening.
No one is interested in YOUR interpretation of those documents!
hey, F45K you too!
it's just an internet chat! at least i've READ the documents, which is all i ever told you to do. you can make up your own mind yourself, but make sure you read it all, every boring scrap and then THINK before you decide. or don't, but then shut up.
hubird

Post by hubird »

garyb wrote:anyone who will call the bohemian grove a fantasy is either ignorant or purposely blind.
no...not that lame rotary club story again :-D
men fighting for the right to pee in the bushes... (rant mode off).
sorry Gary, I have a lot od respect for your independent thinking and gathering and combining alternative information.
but I don't share the way you translate it to a political analysis.
If everything is always under controll by definition why would you (one) care anymore?
Things get interesting where political counterforces win a battle, or are able to question certain developments.
Is Chavez a mask of the Elite?
Why couldn't the Elite stop Cuba?
Why had South Africa to stop apartheid?
Why was the workers class in industrial nations able to work itself up from capitalistic slavery?
Why got fascisme in Europe defeated?
Why don't we even want to forbid Wilders' anti coran film?
You're minimising history to a state of fact, as I said befor, who wins from a deterministic and ahistorical approach of reality?
I'm repeating myself, but who isn't :-D
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

hubird wrote:
garyb wrote:anyone who will call the bohemian grove a fantasy is either ignorant or purposely blind.
no...not that lame rotary club story again :-D
men fighting for the right to pee in the bushes... (rant mode off).
sorry Gary, I have a lot od respect for your independent thinking and gathering and combining alternative information.
but I don't share the way you translate it to a political analysis.
If everything is always under controll by definition why would you (one) care anymore?
Things get interesting where political counterforces win a battle, or are able to question certain developments.
Is Chavez a mask of the Elite?
Why couldn't the Elite stop Cuba?
Why had South Africa to stop apartheid?
Why was the workers class in industrial nations able to work itself up from capitalistic slavery?
Why got fascisme in Europe defeated?
Why don't we even want to forbid Wilders' anti coran film?
You're minimising history to a state of fact, as I said befor, who wins from a deterministic and ahistorical approach of reality?
I'm repeating myself, but who isn't :-D
ok, hubird, i'll bite. :)

these questions are dumb, sorry.
the grove is where the manhattan project and federal reserve system were planned, which is more than just peeing in the bushes. the grove membership were instrumental in founding and funding the UN and one member, mr. rockefellor, donated the land for the UN building(again more than just peeing in the bushes).

the reason to care is because they don't have the right to control all other humans, at all.

there are different factions in the "Elite" fighting for power. hugo Chavez is part of one faction.

why would they like to stop Cuba? i have a photo of Jimmy Carter and Castro standing next to each other making gang hand signs(order of odd fellows signs).

did south africa stop apartheid(a dutch invention)? or did it just change form? gullible, gullible, gullible. are the Africans in control of africa?

just because you have nice stuff, you're not under capitalistic slavery? serfs in England in the middle ages paid 60% of their income and produce to THE LORD. how much in taxes do you pay?

if fascism in europe is defeated, how come the fascist laws are still intact?(a german court recently ruled that a Nazi law never taken off the books that required children to be sent to the state-run schools and outlawing home schooling is lawful and valid) how come the EU constitution is in force even though never ratified? why do soldiers in black uniforms shoot rubber bullets at huge crowds protesting globalist policies? why is the nato symbol a swastika? how are fascists still elected to office in england, france, italy, germany and poland?

political correctedness with one film? try saying the holocaust didn't happen or any other thought crime. try saying that you want to kill the prime mininster or overthrow the government(a human right), not commit the action, just SAY it and see what happens....

YOU are speaking ahistorically. historically, the commoners have been nothing but cannon fodder and workers for the enjoyment of their nearly angelic(and disgustingly corrrupt, sibling killing) "betters".
hubird

Post by hubird »

You're hopeless :-D
You're so obsessed by the idea of total control by the Elite(s) that you count in every arguement into your world of truth.
the grove is a powerless rotary club, as demonstrated by that undercover journalist.
Should I really argue against the arguement of that forgotten German law as a proof of today fascisme in Germany??
A judge has to face the law, politions have to make or change them, and that should be the way it is.
Chavez tries to give back to his people some of the richness of his country, and if you say he's gathering mony for the elite which of course he's a member of you're loosing contact with reality.
Fascists still being elected doesn't make fascisme, don't you think?
One wrong word and they get sue'd.
Tax moves between 33 and 57% here, depending on income level.
The revenues go to roads, education, city planning and repair programs, and army also yes, that's what people want., etc. etc.
Compare that with the mediaval situation.
Bullets for the antiglobalists, yes, but without those protesters no bullets.
Or are those protesters hired by the elite?
It are the dynamics of history that interest me, denying any counterforces is what I call ahistorical, yes.
Com'on...
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

oh really? laws are laws no matter what?

when it was the law in the united states that non-europeans weren't human did that make it so? we have to blindly follow those laws just because they are written? during the nurenberg trials, it was said that following orders wasn't a good enough excuse for doing the wrong thing, that morality wasn't just a subjective point of veiw...

i understand that you like the present order, that's good for you. i'm just not imrpressed. i don't care if they continue with their twisted little party, i just WILL NOT be blamed by them for the problems of the world. i KNOW who the trouble-makers are.

my world isn't as black and white as YOU want to make it. these guys are often not ALL bad, and some even defect to some degree or another, never the less, they don't stay in power without some sort of cooperation from the rest(see noriega, sadaam and milosovic). one false move and... :lol: the problem is much higher up than presidents and ceos. as i said, ONE family runs ALL the banking and controls ALL the resources. there are other similarly placed families, but monopoly is no surprise. monopoly is the point of business(well certain business). haven't you read the writings of Cecil Rhodes(who was working for the house of orange in south africa)?

37-50% taxes, yes. PLUS taxes on every purchase and transaction! YOU sir, are nothing but a serf in a gilded cage. because you have nice things you think you are free. you think that because the cell is pleasant that you're not in prison. did you think a movie like the matrix was futuristic science fiction? remeber the guy who couldn't stand it and made a deal to go back into the matrix? since they treat you better these days, you don't want to upset them by declaring independance?

funny how Nazi euthanasia laws that were rejected on the basis of morality and decency during the 30s and 40s are now championed in the north lands for the same reason, but that's just my personal problem....
hubird

Post by hubird »

garyb wrote:funny how Nazi euthanasia laws that were rejected on the basis of morality and decency during the 30s and 40s are now championed in the north lands for the same reason, but that's just my personal problem....
you don't know what you're talking about.
Our euthanesia law (and abortion law) is an example of a perfect balance between the freedom of the individual to define it's own life and the need to protect misabuse of the given possibility.
Hence the three-double controll mechanisms and procedures before a doctor can give professional help for those who are entitled to ask for it.
Even the very conservative Christions who managed to be a part of the three party gouvernment coalition doesn't want to start the discussion all over again.
They accept the will of the majority on this, not in the least as they know the procedurers are fine-mazed and well thought trough.
Political processes in a multi party system may be slow and siroplike, but in the end our society isn't polarisized as much as in your country, and doesn't have such a class struggle as the US have.
I wish every world sitizen the system I live in, to start with, yes :-)
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

it's ok by me, you have the right to do as you see fit. the comparison is still appropriate. since you like history, historically, incrementalism is used when the public revulses at an idea. soon the idea is commonplace and not shocking at all. an example would be Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.audiences at the time could think of nothing more disgusting than sewing peices of dead people into anything, let alone another body. now, the wealthy can go to China for a nearly immeadiate transplant from a healthy, organically fed peasant who was labled a dissident, euthanized and harvested. as David Rockefellor said himself(the UN also made a decree to the same tune), China is the model government for the future.

actually, i don't think the government has ANY thing to say about things like euthanasia. if a very sick man dies and there is no complaint, why would the government even be involved?
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BingoTheClowno
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Post by BingoTheClowno »

garyb wrote:
BingoTheClowno wrote:
garyb wrote: the UN Agenda 21 documents are available to all, just be sure to read further than the nice sounding opening.
No one is interested in YOUR interpretation of those documents!
hey, F45K you too!
it's just an internet chat! at least i've READ the documents, which is all i ever told you to do. you can make up your own mind yourself, but make sure you read it all, every boring scrap and then THINK before you decide. or don't, but then shut up.
You think bullying will improve your credibility?
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