Forgive Me

Post by **Neil B** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:10 am

I've been working on a track for someone and I've never used vocals before.
Though the track is far from finished and mixed properly, I'm hoping you experts can give me a few pointers.
For the vocalist and harmonies, I've used a bit of delay, eq and reverb but I'd appreciate any help & comments - good or bad.

You can find the track here:

http://www.tonaleffects.co.uk/nb-forgive-me.mp3

Thanks

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:26 am

Are those artificial vocals? That's my favorite part of this. They sound muffled though.

Post by **Neil B** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:16 am

Braincell,
The usual singer of this track is a guy with an acoustic guitar.

When I wrote it for him though I hadn't got a singer.

The oohs and aahs choirs are Symphony of Voices, albeit laid back in the mix.

Now, I'm about to get thrown off Planet Z for this and no one will ever speak to me again

The vocalist and harmony vocals are.......
I daren't
I simply daren't
Okay, I'm off on holiday in the morning so I don't have to face the music.

Yes, I admit it all - it's Vocaloid Lola - version 1.
I've started to use and abuse her as a scratchpad, although like any woman, she is extremely hard work if you want to get any sense out of her ( or anything coherent)

Well spotted

wayne · Post by **wayne** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:28 am

A little less portamento on the vox would help

hifiboom · Post by **hifiboom** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:32 am

I agree the vocals are a bit muffled.
The instrumental part is sounding very nice, imo.

I think about a singer like Sheila Chandra could fit quite well.

Forgiven!

Post by **Neil B** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:40 am

Wayne, that's a classic

However it was my first attempt with her (loss of virginity?) - you should hear the dry sound - worse than anything Dr Who can come up against!

Probably a bit too much delay and reverb? I don't know.
But I suppose the more I use her the better I'll become.
I suppose I'll have to pretend about mic placement and so on.

HifiBoom
Thanks re the instrumentation.
It's not really my style, but something I'm being asked to do.
I used Atmosphere *3
Vanguard
Kontakt - symphony of voices
Scope delays and reverb and mixers
One of the scope synths (forget which without looking at the old project)
And a few other bits and pieces such as wavelab.

Final mix will need the cellos coming up more in the mix.

Anyway, I'll just go and giver her a good flogging

Post by **hubird** » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:21 pm

I just didn't wanne say you messed up the voice recording

relieved!

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:00 pm

hifiboom wrote:I agree the vocals are a bit muffled.
The instrumental part is sounding very nice, imo.

I think about a singer like Sheila Chandra could fit quite well.

Forgiven!

Or Sally Oldfield

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:51 pm

Neil B wrote:Yes, I admit it all - it's Vocaloid Lola - version 1.
I've started to use and abuse her as a scratchpad, although like any woman, she is extremely hard work if you want to get any sense out of her ( or anything coherent)

Post by **Neil B** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:00 am

Apologies for my absence
Ten days sheer pleasure mountain biking in the Scottish Highlands and our first snow of the winter (autumn).

Anyway, back to my request.

IF I had a REAL vocalist and IF I mixed her dry first:
What techniques and effects do you recommend please - this is a new avenue for me.

Shroomz - I'm glad you like my "Meldrew" style sense of humour

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:14 am

Neil B wrote: IF I had a REAL vocalist and IF I mixed her dry first:
What techniques and effects do you recommend please - this is a new avenue for me.

This toitally depends on the final result you want to achieve. I like when woices fly over the music. Some people like it undermixed, other ones will record only in dirty room to get a dirty sound...
Myself, i will repeat again, but it is: compression+FAT+HPfilter +Limiter+psyQ ,most often.
First compressor is optional, i would use it only if the FAT is not enough to keep a tight signal for the voice (i don't like when voice level varies a lot.). Early days, i used lots of Eqs, nowadays, i use less and less eq.
This gives a kind of mainstream touch. For some styles, it wouldn't fit because the voice would be too detailled and "in your face"

Mixing voices is what i prefer in mixing

Post by **Neil B** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:27 pm

Thanks Spacef - that gives me lots to think about (such as buying some of the devices!).
As always, lots and lots to learn.

spacef · Post by **spacef** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:30 am

I used your track for editing a plug, and what i found is that there is zero dynamics on the voice (when there is voice, the track is flat as... something very flat)... of course it is mixed, so i can't say this for sure, but i wouldn't be surprised if the voice wave is like a big rectangle.... well, just noticed that, and it probably changes they tools you need to make it more natural.

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:43 am

Haven't heard Eric Pershings SOV in a long time, I thought I was the only one who still used it.

LOLA too?

Damn.

Nice work.

Post by **Neil B** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:36 am

Well thanks very much Jimmy. I have to say that I am genuinely touched by your reply and comments.

I'm not sure that Lola is very good to be fair and it got a right slating if I remember rightly. Still I'm quite happy with my first attempt in the saddle with her.

SoV I use all the time, over-use if the truth be known but I think my best track with SoV is here (although I'm not sure it'll suit a Vegas guy like yourself )

http://www.tonaleffects.co.uk/aprayerbeforesleep.mp3

A church at the top end of Scotland has asked to use it as part of their Christmas Eve devotional service and again I'm touched by that (considering my lack of skills and standard of workmanship).
I'm also using "Prayer" as part of a meditation seminar that I'm running too.

Again, I thank you for feedback on "Forgive Me".

Post by **Neil B** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:44 am

spacef wrote:I used your track for editing a plug, and what i found is that there is zero dynamics on the voice (when there is voice, the track is flat as... something very flat)... of course it is mixed, so i can't say this for sure, but i wouldn't be surprised if the voice wave is like a big rectangle.... well, just noticed that, and it probably changes they tools you need to make it more natural.

I have to say that I'm a bit out of my depth with your reply (oh why can't I just go back to midi?).
I created the Lola tracks on an office pc that had XP (my music pc was Win 98 at the time) and the office pc had a cheap soundcard. I exported it to audio and then added reverb using Wavelab.
It was still a dirty sound and some of the consonants were a bit harsh so when I got back to the track a few weeks ago I had it on the music pc and used some eq and delay if I remember rightly.
I think it suffered though from being exported on the other pc with a cheap soundcard and a fairly poor Vocaloid engine.
Perhaps it was this that made "her" sound flat.
It is incredibly hard work to get the vibrato just right (portamento too etc) and I probably didn't spend enough time on the volume dynamics except to keep the peaks down. I did a little bit of volume editing in Cubase whilst mixing the whole track.
What I do remember when I tried to mix it some time ago is that there were sudden "surges" as the vocal line came in for each verse. It seemed to compress the other tracks for a second or so. I can't explain that though.
In hindsight I should have spent more time on her (velocity etc) while she was dry (no comments please folks) and I promise to try harder next time!

I hope that this is what you meant and I'll have a look for the original dry wave files.
If I've missed your meaning, I hope to be enlightened by a master

Thanks for the feedback SpaceF - I value it.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:46 am

I think what Jimmy means by zero dynamics is no expression There is in fact no real crescendo or thus no decrescendo in Lola's singing.

A trick I learned from singing in choirs is that a slight crescendo within musical phrases is useful in all 4 parts of the arrangement (SATB). You could perhaps apply this technique to Lola if the program allows it?

Edit: I must admit that there is a boy soprano quality to the Lola track which is perhaps desirable here.

Post by **Neil B** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:29 am

Thanks for that Paul.
Next time I get her out of the closet, I'll bear it in mind.
Ah, the joy of having a woman that only makes a noise when you want her to.........

Just kidding.

Seriously, yes you can add crescendo and decrescendo and with things like that, vibrato etc, you can choose from a selection of presets or design your own.

Thanks Paul