Global Warming

[hubird]

[Mr Arkadin]

Guys, guys... here's the way i see it (i'll use a couple of UK Government 'initiatives' to make my point):

Bingo believes global warming is due to Man. He doesn't own a car and probably recycles.

gary b believes global warming is a natural phenomenon. He runs his car on veg oil and recycles.

The UK Government believes global warming is man made. They ban use of veg oil in cars when people start using it (obviously they don't want people to stop buying oil), they tax giant 4x4 cars claiming they pollute more than smaller cars but don't actually ban them (people that can afford these cars can afford the tax - net result same amount of 4x4s on the road), they tax flying but allow a new Terminal 5 to be built at Heathrow.

My point is most reasonable people treat the environment with respect regardless of whether they perceive current events to be man made or not. So Bingo should be happy that Gary does 'his bit' for the environment even if Gary doesn't believe it's having an effect, because at least he's proactive, whereas governments are just hypocritical shits that only care about big business and screwing the proles with more taxes - they sure as hell don't want us to discover things like veg oil as an alternative fuel.

[BingoTheClowno]

don't be stupid.
Life and property losses from shrubland fires in California have been increasing in recent decades.

Yes, thank you, I agree.

and then i googled this from 2003(since the first article quoted was from 2003 and said that fires had been the same since 1910) to see if 2007 looked remotely like 2003, and lo and behold:
Deadly wildfires have charred more than 300,000 acres
Monday, October 27, 2003 Posted: 10:06 PM EST (0306 GMT)

DEVORE, California (CNN) -- Wildfires engulfing huge swaths of Southern California have killed at least 14 people and sent tens of thousands seeking refuge.

The state's deadliest blazes in more than a decade raged through areas as far north as Simi Valley in Ventura County, east to San Bernardino County and south to San Diego County -- scorching more than 300,000 acres.

Weather forecasts indicate more hot and dry conditions that will mix with the Santa Ana winds and could fan the flames that have reached 100 feet tall in places.

President Bush declared Los Angeles, San Bernardino, San Diego and Ventura counties major disaster areas Monday, opening the way for federal dollars for governments, businesses and people affected by the fires.

California Gov. Gray Davis, who has declared states of emergency in those counties, activated the National Guard to help with disaster relief. Davis said 135 fire engines from other areas -- including Nevada and Arizona -- are headed to San Diego County.

More than 8,000 firefighters were trying to contain at least 10 fires in the region early Monday. But Dallas Jones, director of the Governor's Office for Emergency Services, said most of the fires were less than 20 percent contained, and some weren't contained at all.

The fires have destroyed more than 1,000 homes and left tens of thousands in houses without electricity.

such short memories....

Yes, have you even read what are the current fires stats? 356,000 acres
have already burned and the wind is still blowing....

you don't have a car, but what powers your transportation? natural gas? petroleum? how does the food reach your table? how are the plastics in the keyboard that spews your screed made and from what? don't feel too bad though, at least "global warming" isn't your fault.

You want to get personal? Why?

and speaking of all this, you still haven't addressed the fact that all of the ice and frozen methane in this solar system is melting from mars to saturn. how does this figure that the rest of the solar system is heating up at the same rate as the earth?

Because it's stupid and you have not provided a single valid source to back it up. The climate data for Mars, Venus or any other planet other than Earth is not complete nor all conditions that influence it are know since, as you probably know, not a human soul stepped foot on those planets. So comparing the climate on Mars with the climate on Earth of which we have records going back thousands of years, is sheer stupid. I'm not even surprised you again are promoting it.

[BingoTheClowno]

gary b believes global warming is a natural phenomenon. He runs his car on veg oil and recycles.

He does more than that, he consciously spreads disinformation.

[garyb]

ok, cherry picking.

a good debate technique, but a poor source of truth finding.



as to temperature changes on other planets, it's very relevant when it's system-wide. besides that though, as you said, we have thousands of years of data on the earth showing wildly variable climates. it doesn't even matter whose fault it is, it's bound to happen. the biggest lie is to speak of a "stable climate".

"global warming" is a strictly political issue, not a scientific one. hence, the brouhaha....

[garyb]

gary b believes global warming is a natural phenomenon. He runs his car on veg oil and recycles.

He does more than that, he consciously spreads disinformation.

this is just slanderous. i could say the same about you.

i say the same thing as always, California burns every year.
the extra damage is from new homes being built in areas that burn.
Californians know this.

the article i posted from 2003 was from while the fires were still burning and the winds were still blowing, it was from the same time of year. the article i posted from United States Geological Service states that fires have been the same since at least 1910, so they obviously agree with me.

[BingoTheClowno]

ok, cherry picking.

a good debate technique, but a poor source of truth finding.



as to temperature changes on other planets, it's very relevant when it's system-wide. besides that though, as you said, we have thousands of years of data on the earth showing wildly variable climates. it doesn't even matter whose fault it is, it's bound to happen. the biggest lie is to speak of a "stable climate".

"global warming" is a strictly political issue, not a scientific one. hence, the brouhaha....

We go in circles again.
This whole thread was littered with evidence of charts showing a sharp increase of global temperatures in the past century yet you refuse vehemently these facts based on your guacomole theories that nobody knows where you are pulling them from.

[garyb]

once more.
temperatures ARE rising.
it's not people's fault. it's what happens and what SHOULD happen, fortunate or unfortunately. after rising, it will fall again.

on with life!

[BingoTheClowno]

i could say the same about you.

But you are not, because I have the scientific facts while you have only your own words and oppinions.

i say the same thing as always, California burns every year.
the extra damage is from new homes being built in areas that burn.
Californians know this.

You believe it to be so, but you don't have the statistical data to prove it. Yes?

[BingoTheClowno]

once more.

it's not people's fault. it's what happens and what SHOULD happen, fortunate or unfortunately. after rising, it will fall again.

Once again, disinformation.

[garyb]

what's astounding to me is that the Santiago Canyon fire only had 2 helicopters fighting the fire(according to local FOX news). that's woefully inadequite, another reason for the scope of that fire. orange county firefighters haven't had any help with that one...

edit-ok, i see why there is so little heavy equipment fighting the fires this year. this is the first time that the dept of homeland d-fence has been in charge of the operation. probably the same guys who did such a good job on new orleans after katrina.....

uh oh, now they're calling the Santiago fire and others arson. that warming really makes people want to start fires....

[garyb]

once more.

it's not people's fault. it's what happens and what SHOULD happen, fortunate or unfortunately. after rising, it will fall again.

Once again, disinformation.

what is disinfo? that the temperature will come down again? it will, maybe not in our lifetime, but it will. it always goes up and down. is that the disinfo? that the temperature goes up and down? c'mon, we all know that's fact. there are a number of known ice ages. for there to be ice ages, there must be non-ice ages. otherwise it would just be ice, so we know the temp rises and falls periodically.

[Audiographe]

[garyb]

not accurate projection.

CO2 is the most important life giving gas. plants breathe it in and breathe out O2. the earth actually has had extremely LOW levels of CO2 in the last few hundred years.it's a good thing that the CO2 levels are rising, we have the chance for a very green earth in the near future. typically, according to the ice core samples that have been done, CO2 levels begin to rise about 100years AFTER the temperature begins to rise, followed by a bloom of plant life and an increase in O2.

nice graph, though.

[garyb]

more useful information is here:
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/last_400k_yrs.html

you can even find facts to back up this claim:

Putting it all together:
total human greenhouse gas contributions
add up to about 0.28% of the greenhouse effect

[Audiographe]

The plants will not mutate at the same speed as the rate of CO ².
Plant Pests adapt, no problem.
This type of mutation (normal) is on the millennia, not in 100 years.
The plants will not survive (not enough for all human), mass movement, famine, etc....
And I think it's going to be very fast.
Good luck for our children, for us in the worst.

[garyb]

plants don't need to mutate, just grow. read the material at the link, then give factual debunking of those numbers, not just sloganeering.

fear a one-world totalitarian government more.

by the way, the MAIN "greenhouse gas" is water vapor! further, this from the above cited source:
Temperatures have gone through nearly two complete cycles of warming and cooling over the last 100 years. During the period 1900 to 1940 temperatures were increasing. Then from 1940 to 1975 temperatures were decreasing. Currently, temperatures are increasing back to about where they were in the 1930's.

Overall, the total average annual temperature increase in the last century is so slight the actual amount is uncertain-- maybe 1/3° C.

[garyb]

more from that excellent, scholarly site:
Global Temperature and Atmospheric CO2 over Geologic Time



Late Carboniferous to Early Permian time (315 mya -- 270 mya) is the only time period in the last 600 million years when both atmospheric CO2 and temperatures were as low as they are today (Quaternary Period ).

Temperature after C.R. Scotese http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm
CO2 after R.A. Berner, 2001 (GEOCARB III)



There has historically been much more CO2 in our atmosphere than exists today. For example:

During the Jurassic Period (200 mya), average CO2 concentrations were about 1800 ppm or about 4.7 times higher than today.

The highest concentrations of CO2 during all of the Paleozoic Era occurred during the Cambrian Period, nearly 7000 ppm -- about 18 times higher than today.

The Carboniferous Period and the Ordovician Period were the only geological periods during the Paleozoic Era when global temperatures were as low as they are today. To the consternation of global warming proponents, the Late Ordovician Period was also an Ice Age while at the same time CO2 concentrations then were nearly 12 times higher than today-- 4400 ppm.

According to greenhouse theory, Earth should have been exceedingly hot. Instead, global temperatures were no warmer than today. Clearly, other factors besides atmospheric carbon influence earth temperatures and global warming.

[garyb]

the leader of the movement is a joke.
http://www.tennesseepolicy.org/main/art ... cle_id=367

[Zer]

btw. No catastrophy without an embedded song. Unless enya is this time not in the business perhaps this one will fit

all the leaves are brown
and the sky is grey
I've been for a walk
on a winter's day

I'd be safe and warm
if I was in L.A
California's burning'
on such a winter's day