How far can we go with fourth harmony

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:27 am

Hi,

I would like to have infos about fourth harmony and modal

recently I was looking on how to have chord change for a modal part of a song and was wondering if bill evans's voicings for dorian mode was also working for other mode (phrygian ,.lydian ..)
Basically as I understand them, he harmonized the C major (which is the root scale for Dm7 dorian chord )scale with fourths and used these chords as substiutes for the Dm7. So the question is can we use this trick for others mode of the C major scale?

any insight wellcome.

cheers

Michel

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:08 pm

Here's an example I sketched real quick 4 you.

I do not have any scientific explanation for you, but a practical approach might yield some answers.

Try to imagine all passing tones having consonance, and the leading tones may be dissanant.

Anyone who listens to Bill Evans has my attention 4 sure.

This is great all time experiment for improvisation.

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:43 pm

Hi,

Thanks a lot S4L ... I enjoy it! .... and I like these genious too !

I'll come back to you if I need more infos about modal impros as you seems as found as I am for this music.

My understanding about fourth harmony is this:
Dm7 is the modal chord for the Dorian mode of the C Majord scale.
Then from the root note C you take 1 note over 3 from the C major scale and you get a first chord (C,F,B,D) then you take D and do the same again (D,G,C,E) and so on for each degree of the scale. The seven chords can be used as replacement for Dm7

This work for Dorian ... and I guess it work for each mode of the Cmajor scale

I'll try to find this Modus novus book !!!

and by the way fourth harmony is really cool on guitar

Thanks a lot

Michel

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:20 pm

Good Luck,

I studied it @ N.Texas State back in the '70s when we were green little kids.

Usually good books never last. Only the books that make coninuos profit.

But I went get into that any further.

Good Luck.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:15 pm

MD69 wrote:Hi,

I'll try to find this Modus novus book !!!

and by the way fourth harmony is really cool on guitar

Thanks a lot

Michel

Modus Novus is a solfège book. It will teach you harmony only if you know how to do a harmonic analysis a la Bach chorale. We used this in advanced dictation in University. (edit: I re-read the music Jimmy wrote and this is not from the same Modus Novus)

Fourth harmony is cool on guitar but it's even cooler when you learn inversions and how to leave out certain notes like Joe Pass.

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:17 pm

I almost forgot,

If you don't listen to Weather Report,...you should.

Josef Zawinul used modal improv.'s so gracefully.

R.I.P. Brotha' Man.

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:18 pm

Paul You Are Correct !! OMG, I forgot ,....it was a brainfart. I remember that sight singing class now. Solfeggio !!!

Can't believe I still sing the syllables when analysing a chart.

I got the names mixed up, it's been 30 + years. I will repost the correct name when it comes to mind. I believe it was co-written by Jerry Coker.

Before I embarrass myself, I will make sure I am 100% correct. The music above was from memory though, as it is an improisational excercise with a little soul, being the 16th grace note.

Esta Luego.

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:19 am

Hi Paul and S4L,

Thanks for your replyes

Sorry for the delay but I changed my ISP in between!

My decyphering of S4L chords was D6/9sus4omit5 which is OK for Dorian even if it is not fourths only.

But the questions is, taken that modal variations are derived from a scale (major in this case), can we use the fourth harmonisation principle for all modus derived from a scale (major in my case) or does it work for Dorian Only

Sorry if it is not really clear, but translating french harmony vocabulary to english is not That easy to me.

Cheers

Michel

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:27 am

I believe I did not understand your original question, Michel.
Est-ce que tu parles d'accords bâtis qu'avec des intervalles de quartes?
comme Do-Fa-Si bémol-Mi bémol...? Là, on passerait aux choses sérieuses!

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:40 am

Hi Paul,

That's exactly what I was on. Stacking fourth.

Sorry if it was not clear but I am not sure about how to translate "modes" in english

To take it back:

Harmonizing a major in fourth is taking 1 note evrey three from the scale
which brings 7 chords being substitutes for a modal chord (Dmin7 for dorian)

I wonder if there is something about how to extand this technique to other "modes"

cheers

Michel

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:05 am

Stacking 4ths implies thinking in terms of chord inversions.
one of the tricks for harmonizing a sax section in a big band is to stack 5 4ths then sharping or flatting one of the notes. Depending on which note is altered a different harmonic context is brought out. The there is the consideration of which note is being played by the bass.

Now, if I stack G-C-F, If I have a G in the bass this gives me a G7sus4. If I put a C in the bass I get a simple Csus4. If I put an A in the bass I get an Fadd9 in first inversion. A Db in the bass could give me an Eb13 add 9 in 1st inversion without having to actually hear the Eb(this example depends on the harmonic context)

I can go on and on...

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:30 am

Hi Paul,

OK, You gived me the trick, and I'll check how the chords generated by harmonizing the majord scale in fourth behave through chord inversion

Thanks a lot

Cheers

Michel

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:57 am

Glad to help.

Check out Scriabin's Mystic Chord. It consist of 5 superimposed fourths:
C-F#-Bb-E-A-D
Beautiful!

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:47 pm

Hi Paul,

I decyphered that one:

it's an harmonized C Bartok (4th mode of G melodic minor)

G MM: G A Bb C D E F#
C Bartok: C D E F# G A Bb
then take 1 note every 3
C F# Bb E A D G

cheers

Michel

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:10 pm

I believe that you mean degree (of the scale) when you write mode.
Is that correct?

By the way, Scriabin predates Bartok by a few decades

MD69 · Post by **MD69** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:45 pm

Hi Paul,

I guess so ... I definitively need a translator. Sometime I get lost with all these subtles differences

cheers and thanks again

Michel