Using the scope fX next to Rme hdspe

mjdl · Post by **mjdl** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:14 am

Hi there,

Do you guys and girls now a way to run my two pulsar 2 cards next to my rme card, and only use the plugins of my pulsar's. I've tryd it with the in out enabler but as soon as I start nuendo I can't load the fx. It would be great to just use the cards as an dsp card.

hope somebody knows.

Greetings from amsterdam,

Mark de lange

H-Rave · Post by **H-Rave** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:07 pm

have you tried it in xtc mode.you check the xtc mode box in the settings, disable the startup project and then exit .when you startup nuendo the xtc plugins should kick in.try that for starters and get back to "us ".

mjdl · Post by **mjdl** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:35 pm

hi H-Rave,

Thanks for the reply. Yes I've tried it. I used to run my two pulsar cards in xtc mode for the past four years , and it always worked fine. In my new pc there is only one pci slot, so I would like to use that slot for a pulsarcard, but as an fx card and run my ins and outs from my Rme. And in Nuendo the xtc plugins show up like always exept for the fact that there is no audio running trhough them. And in the dsp meter you don't see any activity. I thought mayby I should install the card differently. I Used to have two cards running on a magma on this board and that works fine. However as soon as I plug the Rme in it overrides the pulsar card.

Hope there is an answer.

Thanks,

Mark de lange

Post by **garyb** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:56 pm

you need to remove the i/o plate and install a back plate(to secure the card to the case). it's the only way that you can use output scope dsps through another card's i/o. you can probably get a back plate from SonicCore. why would you want to do that? the scope card's i/o is as good as the RME's....

mjdl · Post by **mjdl** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:30 am

Hi, Gary,

Thanks for your answer. For me the reason is stabilety and in''s and out's. I had such a difficult time in getting uad cards and pulsar cards running smoothly together in xtc mode. At one point I was doing some overdubs after automation and when I listend to the track there was a realy small crack every once in a while. That closed the door for me. Although I think scope is sounding realy good, the drivers are underdeveloped(no dualcore,W98/2000!!), I was tired of waiting for updates, and for future proof recording I desided that it was time to build a new system. Now I am running 64 ins and outs with 60 to 70 plugins with 3 miliseconds latency on a tyan with two dualcore's. You can't do that with a scope system without cracking. At least I can't. And I don't want to spent two weeks getting the system to work. With the Rme hdspe madi card, I plugged it in and it worked. Like a charm. It sounds cleaner though, almost clinical. Listening to the same mixes on a pulsar gives a warmer sound. Anyway,I haven't installed my apogee ensemble yet. But it all seems to work beatifully and with the madi interface the computer can go into the closit or at the neigbours. Just need three long bnc cabels. that's so easy!

Thanks.

mark de lange

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:16 pm

Gary,
I can see why mjdl is going the way he is. I believe InDSP and Sonicore are being a little short sighted in not being more active in keeping their existing scope range up to date. It creates the wrong impression. They are still selling cards, making claims of 35,000 systems sold but I am left with an impression of not much development activity and a company that is less than professional. There I was with the SmartAV rep's and inventor but couldn't demonstrate what a killer system scope and the SmartAV console's would be together because scope does not support *real* automation so I kept quiet about it.
I will use scope until my cards die and I can't get secondhand replacements or my computer dies and I can't get replacement pci motherboards because there is still nothing out there at that price point and sound quality which compare's. But what frustration I have! Great technology at snails pace......

Post by **garyb** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:21 pm

yeah, i'm a little concerned right now, too.

on the happy side, there's finally a mixer using mackie control. it seems Wolf has done a nice job.

mjdl · Post by **mjdl** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:28 pm

Hi Guys,

I totally agree, it's a wonderfull system, and with the new plugins coming out, it's as good as an Uad card. Some plugins are even better.

I tried to get it to work with the back plate off, but then it says the plugins are not properly installed. and there is no communication with the board, and trying to reset the dsp might help etc etc, but doing this hangs nuendo. Seems to me the creamware card is unuseble as an fx card next to Rme. Will try it on an other compu to see if its the mobo design.

Thinking of putting it in my server and run it as an fx rack. All this luxery is killing me. Why not just update the drivers! I've spent a fortune and would have spent a lot more on plugins. Wouldn't even mind to pay for updates. But that's the problem with genius, commercially dumbheads. The things that really matters for us audiofreaks is consistency and reliabillity. Who is going to buy stuff from a vendor when you now is almost broke? Show life trough development and customers will stay. All creamware's competitors are releasing update after update.

By the way, back to everyday life, does someone now how many plugins I can use on one pulsar two board?

Thanks,

Mark de Lange

Post by **garyb** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:53 pm

the number of plugins you can use depends on how much dsp each one uses.

you need the backplate to run without i/o and i'm sure you'd need to reinstall....

i'm not sure what the dual core problem you are having is, but you are running amd. amds don't work as they should. intel is the benchmark and standard and the intel dualcores work just fine. i don't really think this is a driver issue(though i certainly could be wrong), even though the rme is working fine. the rme does not work the same way as the scope card and it may be less likely to have a problem, although rme's support was definitely NOT recommending nforce4 chipsets a while ago(though i'm sure they're fine by now).

regardless, i hope you get it going in a way that works for you...

mjdl · Post by **mjdl** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:25 pm

hi Gary,

No'p, in fact Rme recomend's this board for the use with Rme cards. And since half the pro world I know runs with a mobo like mine it should be fine. I didn't try to run it deselecting the ins en outs though, forget that one, I am going to try that now.

Thanks,

Mark de lange

Post by **garyb** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:31 am

sure, no problem. this is what i remembered reading on the RME site http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/PCIe_03.htm :

"nForce4, DSP PCI card, and AMD 64 X2 compatibility

Presently there are no known work arounds to issues with choppy audio and/or CPU spikes with the combination of UAD-1 PCI, AMD 64 X2 and nForce4 desktop chipsets.

However, there are a few user reports demonstrating good but not stellar performance down to some 6 ms latency setting, if the UAD-1 DSP host is moderately loaded and the mainboard’s CPU is not maxed out. These reports are based on a combination of Asus A8N-E, AMD 64 4200+, 2x UAD-1s PCI and FW soundcard connected to the PCIe bus via a FW to PCIe card (to maintain audio I/O on the PCIe bus separated from the PCI bus).

The TC PowerCore mk II PCI does not have any compatibility issues with the combination of nForce4 desktop chipset and AMD 64 X2."

they also write this:
"Dual-CPU nForce4 Professional (2200 + 2050 chipsets)

This dual chipset combination is used on dual-CPU (Opteron 2xx) mainboards targeted for the server-/workstation segment. Pro DAW users with high demands on simultaneous track counts at high sampling frequencies, VSTi/sampling capacity, video recording/rendering capacity, etc., are likely to find features such as dual dual-core CPUs, separate PCI/PCI-X/PCIe buses, NUMA support, etc. of great value.

DAW stress test data (Thonex, Thonex II) indicates that the nForce4 Professional chipset does not have the PCI-PCIe interconnectivity issue as reported with the nForce4 desktop chipsets.

The following motherboards are recommended and known to be compatible with RME soundcards: Tyan Thunder K8WE (S2895) and Supermicro H8DCE. Supermicro has recently released a new series of motherboards featuring the new AMD 8132 PCI-X hub and separate 64-bit 100/133 MHz PCI-X buses/slots (H8DCi and H8DC8). Gigabyte has also released an AMD 8132-featured mainboard with similar PCI-X and PCI specs (GA-2CWEH). These new mainboards with AMD 8132 PCI-X hubs have though not yet been congruently tested for DAW usage.

It is not yet known if the new AMD 8132 PCI-X hub is compatible with UAD-1s. The new PCI-X hub though apparently does not have errata found on the 8131 – e.g. such that (1) the fairness algorithm does not function properly according to the HyperTransport I/O specs leading to uneven bandwidth distribution under specific conditions, and (2) that the PCI-X tunnel links do not function properly at 800 MHz."

as you can see, at least in the early nforce4 chipsets, there was a flaw. that's my point. a scope card is much more complicated than a "sound card", and may be more susceptable to problems in the basic design of the system. since intel is the model for the entire industry, they seem to have fewer problems, in fact none in the way i use the cards with dual core and dual processor anyway, so i'm pretty sure it's not really a driver issue. if it was the driver, then intel chipsets and cpus should have problems too. as i said, i may be wrong and i know i'm not helping your current problem, for which i apologise.....

mjdl · Post by **mjdl** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:20 am

So what you are saying is that you are running a set with muliple uads and pulsar cards in one system with dualprocessing in XTC mode without problems!?. I could't even run two pulsar and two uad on my pentium 4 mobo. I would have to move the stdm?cable every month and reinstall drivers but that's of coarse the xtc mode. Before that I would run them in there own routingwindow and that works without any problem. It's like in my studio, I can hook every possible hole on every machine on a patch and back and digital to be able to do everithing and going everywhere, but then you are probebly troubelshooting more than mixing. What my point is. Yes the cards are complicated which results in to many situations of malfunctioning. Even in one of there own invironments (XTC) I haven't heard of a flawless muliple board system. And I do not agree intel is the way to go. Now with the new proc's there ahead again but that changes from year to year. And I am not a special fan of Amd. I just checked out what other people were using and bought that. At ADK they build these baby's going on the road with u2 and stuff. And for me ist's working, exept for the creamware card.

kind regards,

Mark de lange

Post by **garyb** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:30 am

the amds are fine, i'm not criticising your computer nessessarily. do as you like. using xtc mode is certainly not the best way to use a scope card. it cuts off half of what they do better than everyone else, but again, you need to work in the way that you like best. xtc mode is not even supported, so i'm not surprised to hear of your problem, and i hope there's a solution for you somewhere down the line. that you say that scope mode had no problems, makes sense...

all i was saying was that there ARE some design flaws in the current amd setups, that may never be a problem with other cards, and that i don't think it's a simple driver issue. the rme site bears this out. the fact that it worked with the routing window also bears out that the driver works fine. unfortunately, there seems to be resource issues running in xtc mode(my guess) using uads and a busy mix.

i know many techs for high level groups and believe me, they are often ignorant guys doing what the first guy did, like a conga line. often, these guys solutions are not the best, but they are 95% working and no one dares to alter them. once again though, i'm sure your computer is great, other than this one problem. if you contact soniccore, they should be able to sell you the peice to make that card a simple xtc booster board. how did disabling the i/o in the i/o enabler program do?

mjdl · Post by **mjdl** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:10 am

Hi Gary,

I am sorry if I sounded a bit harsh, and you are absolutly right about following the inventor. And I now that there are designflaws on tyan and amd's. But I think that creamware should have recognized the fact that their cards were unstable in xtc mode and they should have tried to solve it. So It would be easier to implement the card on different systems. And why aren't there any xp64 drivers, or vista? They stopped development. And I need to go on.

Unfortunately it didn't work. Apparently it's what you said, a pci overflow problem.
It works fine alone but not in xtc mode. I am done trying and will put it on my server and have 16 inserts on adat. Doing it the oldschool style but then digital.

Thanks for your help Gary, much appreciated,

Mark

Post by **garyb** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:16 am

sure, i'm looking for those 64bit vista drivers as well.

old school is good.

sorry it didn't work the way you wanted it to.....

Bifop · Post by **Bifop** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:01 pm

Mark, don't spend time trying to get xtc mode working with your rme... Been there, done that. Nothing could make it work. With the plate removed, the terminator etc.... Nada.

I totally share your view regarding Indsp/ SonicCore and Creamware before that.

The problem is everybody here is a "believer" and most of the optimism is based on pure speculation more than facts...

I'm going to get a quad as well and it could be end of the road for the Pulsars (at least as main machine cards).

valis · Post by **valis** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:41 am

The "AMD" related issues in the past for dsp card users existed across the board, and not with Creamware alone. The issue of course wasn't AMD's cpu's but rather the chipset that they get plugged into. Nforce3 (and now Nforce4 'pro' it seems) were the only known working non-amd chipsets that didn't have PCI overflow issues or ACPI related irq sharing issues. In fact AMD's dual cpu chipsets for the old MP and MPX athlons were also problematic, the former had issues with the agp bus swamping the entire bandwidth of the 'north' chip and the mpx chipset had some errata related to the PCI bus which necessitated disabling the built in usb support among other things. AMD will be issuing chipsets again in the future but their attempts are probably going to be geared towards leveraging the now-inhouse ATI gpu technologies and their opteron server tech.

The fondness for Intel around these parts is due to having at least one stable Intel chipset per generation of cpu that was rock solid for what the Creamware cards do (and again these issues affect UAD/Powercore as often as not).

All of this is based largely on the amount of cash a company has to blow on QA testing for their chipsets. During the p4 era Intel routinely did 50,000-100,000 hours on a given part, whereas AMD might do 30,000, nvidia 12-15,000 hours and Via/Sis 3000 or less. The companies that did under 20,000 hours of validation were basically doing in-the-field beta testing of their hardware and trying to rev their chipsets/motherboards as fast as possible to 'fix' them (hence the earlier nforce4 issues being probably fixed in later revisions).

I also agree with GaryB in regards to how someone's initial success is quite often blindly repeated. WItness the number of people who go through massive efforts to reinstall windows and disable ACPI rather than resolving irq sharing issues. IRQ & DMA issues are simple to anyone that's been around since before the days of Win95, but frustratingly confusing to people who 'just want it to work'.

mjdl · Post by **mjdl** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:56 pm

Hi guys,

Thanks for so much reply. Thanks Bifop, that's what I thought, I'll stop trying.

Thanks for your info on the chipsets Valis. I do not agree with you guys. I do not want to have to become a high skilled computertech to be able to install a soundcard, I am just a guy who wants to spent time mixing and make music, and not waste my valuable time to solve pci overflow issues and other stuff. There are companies who are specialized in this. (And often those company's get scared if you ask them to build you a problem free scope system). And for that reason I go with what someone else successfully build. I think it's the obligation of a sound card producer to first, tell his client what a good compu is to run his products on, second to update his drivers frequently for new mobo and platforms, and third, Revision boards for new slots's for instance. As you said people should be able to fix simple problems but with the Uad and rme cards, reading the manual will do the work. And thats the way to go for me. Whatever wrong with my chipset, Rme recommends this mobo, with procs and chipset, and they are right, you plug it in and it plays. I didn't have to spend weeks on forums just to find out what computer I could ensemble as i did for my creamware cards, And then spend another two weeks getting it all to work. I need to make money with my system! And I am happy that I can still enjoy the creamware cards in my old computer. I think the creamware card is a super invention, but it takes a lot more to make a great product. And for creamware to go bankrupt proves my point. And I don't see SonicCore doing it differently, they just want to sell cards. It's short term customer politics, and that kills your company.

With kind regards

Mark de lange

Bifop · Post by **Bifop** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:14 am

Come back Mjdi !
I have just tried the jumper trick and it works with the RME HDSP....

http://www.planetz.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23331

Bifop · Post by **Bifop** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:49 am

UPDATE It's even simpler than what we thought !
See : http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23331

PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Using the scope fX next to Rme hdspe

Using the scope fX next to Rme hdspe

pulsar two in xtc