Mass Murderer Gets 98% Positive Feedback On Ebay

katano · Post by **katano** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:47 am

manfriday wrote:
And there will be no defending needs if there's no invasion, it's that simple.
I think you have something backwards here, friend.
Of course there is no "defending' needed if there is no aggressor..
And yes, it IS indeed that simple!
But typically an aggressor does not ask for permission!
He just attacks, and you are left with the option of defending yourself or dying..

So if you are attacked, or invaded by a foreign power.. is it immoral for you to defend yourself with force? Or to drive out the invader?

First comes the right to live, there's no bigger gift than life!
ON that we agree. But how does that fit into the notion of it being immoral to defend oneself?
I think there is a big difference morally between using force to attack or using force to defend.

ok, i may should differentiate. are we talking about global invaders? Then i understand if one country invades another that the invaded one defends itself, so would i. What i don't understand is why it's necessary to defend myself in my own beloved country. if that's the case, for what reason ever, it must be definitively something wrong in this country. if this were the case here in switzerland, i would leave, because this is not the way i want to spend my life... i like sweden, denmark and norway a lot

however, finally and unfortunately it's all about money... for me it's not, it doesn't make me happy at all, not only because of the taxes

cheers
roman

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:01 am

ok, i may should differentiate. are we talking about global invaders?

either.
Could be a foreign army invading your homeland with the goal of killing you and your countrymen, or a single man invading your home with the goal or killing and/or robbing you.

if that's the case, for what reason ever, it must be definitively something wrong in this country.

well, you do live in switzerland, where the people are apparently all just groovey and happy chilling out together.

And Norway, Denmark etc.. They all have pretty low crime rates too..
Maybe they got it all out of their system back in the dark ages.

Like maybe they did the killing and the pillaging back in their viking days and now they are just happy tooling around in their eco cars and being groovy to each other.

Wish it were like that everywhere, but sadly, it is not.

Should we all move to switzerland? We can crash at your pad, right?

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:25 am

No, just the act of invading someones home (or country) makes you the aggressor, not the defender. Even if you do not have a weapon you are the aggressor in that situation.
(of course I do not mean YOU,, im using the hypothetical 'you' )

my point was, even tho the burglar most certainly IS the aggressor, you pulling a gun at him steps the conflict up, which in some cases makes the burglar go away, and in some cases ends in fatalities.

Well how could anyone know that the gun was decicive for the crime being avoided? in many cases (if we stick to the burglary example) the thief would leave if encountered, and even be more likely to do so if you have a phone in your hand, talking to the police. also, in many cases the burglar is more likely to shot a guy pointing a gun at him than a guy that doesnt.

So?

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm

heh.. well, I had a hard time believing the numbers you posted, becuase you did not seem to take population into account..
So I looked into it a bit

thats true, thats why i (after re-reading the post i was quoting) edited my post and deleted those numbers

i was looking at totals, not rate.

the amount of gun owners i havent been able to confirm yet, so i cant get any more exact numbers that 70-90 million. please correct me if im wrong.

Post by **garyb** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:30 am

piddi,
the "expert" was refering to the .22 target pistol, NOT a P90. P90's are developed in europe and they're for shooting CIVILIANS. watch the clip.

also, asking for protection from blackwater is like asking the devil to protect you. blackwater(and other mercs like dyncorp) has been running child protitution rings in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan. blackwater(and other merc) agents have been inviolved in shootings of innocent civilians in those places as well, not to mention it was blackwater mercs who were among the worst shooting at civilians in new orleans. beware who you trust.

as to people being afraid to burglarize in the usa, if a house is known to have a gun, i garuntee that the burglar will go to the next house! also, a mitigating factor here is that the law is such that you may own a gun, but if someone breaks in your house and you shoot them for any reason, they can sue you. this means many gun owners(who are mostly law abiding) don't have weapons that are even ready to be useful. this was not always so. at one time 20-30 years ago, the law would give you a handshake for shooting an intruder....

braincell, maybe "god" didn't give me my rights, but then neither did the state. my rights are mine from creation. period. i don't need the state to apporove in order to have justification. this is a basic american tenet, and it seperates america from other states, no matter what the state thinks....

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:35 am

wow, that many with guns!

The could almost lead you to believe that it's been the governments' plan to have an armed nation for defense purposes all along. That many guns in the hands of citizens is a major deterent to anyone considering a US soil invasion. Meanwhile US troops jump from continent to continent decade after decade running around like bafoons on gook-killing sprees that make billions for their loyal masters. Do you laugh or vomit?

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:40 am

garyb wrote:piddi,
the "expert" was refering to the .22 target pistol, NOT a P90. P90's are developed in europe and they're for shooting CIVILIANS. watch the clip.

sorry Gary, just read thru here, didnt watch the clip. Got tha wrong impression.

my sarcastic Blackwater comment was just a sarcastic remark btw.

on another general note, heres some nifty little info.

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsa ... tm#america

Post by **garyb** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:43 am

vomit.
especially when u.s. leaders who are genetic blue blods, nephews to the queen of england, the netherlands and sweden among others(cheney, bush, kerry, powell) are doing what they are doing in concert with their european brethren.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:01 am

my point was, even tho the burglar most certainly IS the aggressor, you pulling a gun at him steps the conflict up

Not really. Perhaps it is just a matter of perspective, but I believe the conflict is set up when he invades your home.
You are correct however, that in some cases when a burglar is confronted they will run away. But what if he doesn't?
I think it is reasonable to assume that if someone breaks into your home they do not have your best interests at heart and to defend yourself appropriately.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm

Is your point that crime rates have declined over the past 14 years?
That may be so, but that was not my point.
My point was that a significant number of violent crimes were deterred because would-be victims had guns with which to defend themselves.
If crime rates went down, it is logical to assume that the incidents of guns being used in self defense went down as well, but that is a good thing, and does nothing to argue a case against gun ownership.

the amount of gun owners i havent been able to confirm yet, so i cant get any more exact numbers that 70-90 million. please correct me if im wrong.

Not sure if the numbers are right or wrong, but the percentage of gun ownership varies from state to states..
High-gun states have an average of 50-53% gun ownership.
Some states have as little as 4% gun ownership.

Post by **garyb** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:06 am

109 people die from automobile accidents each day in the usa(about 40,000 a year). http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

there are many dangerous objects in the world today.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:12 am

on another general note, heres some nifty little info.

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsa ... tm#america

The info is nifty, but largely useless..

The way the statistics on that site are presented is bordering on deceit.

They say:
"American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun,"

what reaction is that "statistic" designed to elicit?
An emotional one of course.
It makes people think 'oh no! our children are 16 times more likely to be murdered here in the US than anywhere else! WE HAVE TO GET RID OF THESE GUNS!"

And what about this 'statistic' : "11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun"

sounds like our children are 11 times more likely to commit suicide than children from another country!

But that is not what they are really saying is it?

To get to the truth you'd need to know how our suicide rate and homicide rates in general compare to other countries. The method of killing is meaningless.
The loss of life is what matters.

Post by **garyb** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:18 am

no! just let it happen! soon your brain will be clean.............

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:24 am

hah.
Isn't it crazy how 'selective telling of the truth' can be used to make people think whatever ya want?

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:36 am

Auto safety is a different issue and I agree an important one that we should be paying much more attention to and working on but there is a big difference; we depend on autos. Let me give you a choice. Would you rather own a gun or own an auto? You see, autos serve a purpose. Guns don't really serve a purpose other than to kill or intimidate people.

garyb wrote:109 people die from automobile accidents each day in the usa(about 40,000 a year). http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

there are many dangerous objects in the world today.

Post by **garyb** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:37 am

why doesn't your government trust you?

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:52 am

ill take a break from here, its getting to involving

Post by **garyb** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:53 am

synthetic88 · Post by **synthetic88** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:17 am

manfriday wrote:They say:
"American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun,"

what reaction is that "statistic" designed to elicit?
An emotional one of course.
It makes people think 'oh no! our children are 16 times more likely to be murdered here in the US than anywhere else! WE HAVE TO GET RID OF THESE GUNS!"

And what about this 'statistic' : "11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun"

sounds like our children are 11 times more likely to commit suicide than children from another country!

But that is not what they are really saying is it?

That's how I read it, too. A very interesting spin on the numbers.

I think what scares most people about gun ownership (my wife especially, she has put her foot down on the issue) is accidental shootings in the home. I can't imagine that there are people who don't lock them up in their house so the kids don't play with it, but I suppose there are. Having experienced living in South Central LA during the '90s riots (heck, just the fact I have to specify WHICH LA riots I'm talking about), I wouldn't mind having a Glock in a locked box under my bed. But the media convinces us that I'm more likely to shoot myself than some meth-head that just took my sliding glass door off its track. Or by having a gun in a lockbox, I'm still endangering my unborn child who will one day pick the lock.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:36 am

I'm sure that you and Gary can be trusted with guns but that is not the problem. Our country is filled with total inbred hate filled morons and alcoholics.That is why guns should never be legal.

In 2005 there were 16,900 murders in the United States. As you can imagine most with guns.

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:38 am

Hey! The guy with the Ed Grimley cowlick in the upper left corner of that picture is Gregory Despres, a pyscho who killed an old couple with a chainsaw, just up the road from where I'm living, and then hiked back to the states. Apparently he got across the border by telling the guards he was painting something red, that day... Eventually caught by the police in the states and returned to Canada.

This is gonna piss some people off. I'm a nonviolent person myself, never owned a gun, hope never to live where I need to. But if you told me you shot and killed a burglar, I probably would thank you because there's one less a-hole to break into MY house, now. I think the (US) problem is a violent, anonymous culture where guns etc are GLORIFIED (there's hardly a major movie nowadays that ISNT about revenge-fantasy, and TV shows sadly put ideas into peoples heads, making the unthinkable, thinkable). And people are isolated from each other, living in locked houses, and feel little compassion for each other, sometimes I'm surprised more people don't 'go postal'. And as Nestor put so well, the evil is in each of us, to some extent, and will find a way to express itself, guns or no guns.

manfriday · Post by **manfriday** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:54 am

I think what scares most people about gun ownership (my wife especially, she has put her foot down on the issue) is accidental shootings in the home. I can't imagine that there are people who don't lock them up in their house so the kids don't play with it, but I suppose there are. Having experienced living in South Central LA during the '90s riots (heck, just the fact I have to specify WHICH LA riots I'm talking about), I wouldn't mind having a Glock in a locked box under my bed. But the media convinces us that I'm more likely to shoot myself than some meth-head that just took my sliding glass door off its track. Or by having a gun in a lockbox, I'm still endangering my unborn child who will one day pick the lock.

Yup, I'm pretty much in the same boat.
My wife hates guns. The poor girl was forced to shoot a 22 when she was 9 or 10.
She missed the bottle she was aiming at and killed a frog in the pond behind the bottle.
She was traumatized.

I cant help but find the story funny, but she still gets a little teary over it.

But yeah, she doesn't want a gun in the house either, and I don't care about guns enough to argue it.
So, while I may sound like a gun-nut with my arguing here, I'm not.
I just value the right to own a gun should I choose to.