Help needed! Unstable system, freezes, sound-scatter etc.

AlienHand · Post by **AlienHand** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:52 am

Hi guys.

I'm having BIG problems making my system 100% stable. I've browsed this forum endlessly and tried every good idea posted here - with only a little positive result - but still an unstable system.

First I'll give you all the hardware and software info and what I've done (tried and testet).

PC Hardware: (nothing is overclocked)
- Motherboard: Asus P5W64 WS Professional
- Graphic: Asus 8800GTX
- CPU: E6600 Core 2 Duo 2.4 GHz
- RAM: 2 GB (2x1GB) OCZ Gold Dual Channel (pc2 8800)
- Harddisc: 3 x Seagate 250 GB SATA
- Plextor DVD/CD and floppy
- Powerfull PSU (Thermaltake) 680 watt with 2 ultra-silent fans.

Creamware boards and other stuff:
- Scope Pro (15 dsp)
- Pulsar (4 dsp)
- Emagic AMT8 (via serial)
- Adat TDIF-1 RME
- JP-8080
- Access Virus C
- Roland keyboard PC-180A

Software:
- Scope v4.0
- Logic 5.5.1
- Windows XP Pro sp2

What I have tried etc: (Step 1, 2, etc.)
1 - Clean install of windows XP:
I've tried to install Standard PC - but my system will not accept it (compatibility isues). Even tried to disable ACPI support in BIOS - result was darkblue screen of death telling me of some compatibility isues again. For a stable Windows I've installed it as "ACPI Multiprocessor PC". Runs like a charm

Removed everything not needed - messenger, outlook, games etc. Set appearance to windows default (like WinME) with no effects what so ever. System set to best performance. Automatic Update OFF. System restore OFF.
No ethernet installed - absolutly clean of any shit you can think of.... (I have like 17 services running with task manager).

2 - Driver install for emagic AMT8:
No problems here. Driver installed. Uses serial port.

3 - Scope software installed:
The software installes the driver for both boards automaticly and reboots - the installation continues...
I've even tried the 3.1b driver posted somewhere in this forum.
AND I remember to REMOVE the "check" in "reset board if idle" on both scope boards. ULLI at 13 ms (44.1) and NO conflicts in System Information. The boards uses IRQ 21 and 22.

4 - Logic 5.5.1 installed:
Need I say more....

I must confess... I've installed the newest nvidia driver for my 8800GTX. I'm using screen size 1920 x 1440. Without nvidia driver it will only go to 1600 x 1200.
Now I set up a scope project with a mixer (tried them all) and ASIO2 24bit etc. And an adat source for my synths.
Now I load Logic - sets up ASIO driver in Pref etc. Touching the keyboard confirms my setting. Nice sound from the JP-8080 caresses my load-speakers. I'm good to go !!

What's the problem? - you might ask....
Here it comes. I make a midi arrange (matrix style) in the master arrange and when I open it (to type in some midi info for JP-8080 to play) Logic just freezes. I can still play my synth for like 10-15 seconds. Then Logic closes ... gone ... piff.
If I start up the Logic again it comes with an ASIO error. Scope is still running. If I try to setup ASIO in Logic again - it may give me the BSOD for 1 sec and then reboots. Or it's just not working and I have to reboot myself. Restarting Scope and Logic also gives me ASIO error (when stating Logic).
It seems like something's wrong with scope. Now I try Cubase SX3. It runs without any problems. BUT - when playing wav and/or synth in the arrange window, the sounds scatter a bit depending on how many tracks etc.

Playing and recording:
One major problem I had with this new computer has been while recording. So much scatter it sounds like a bad radio station. Tried recording with windows sound recorder, audition etc. Only Vdat i Scope works when I want to record something. This problem was partly solved by NOT using RAID 5. RAID 5 was VERY bad in my case. RAID 1 or normal harddisc setting gives the same result. (please hear the attached file recorded with this system).

Now .... I'm out of ideas - money - and passion .... this is killing me slowly.
Should I call an Exorcist to have an look at my computer?
What else can I try? (That does not involve a soldering iron)

I would appreciate ANY help you guys can give me. Pleeeease !!!

Best regards,
AlienHand

PS: Smelly Cat says hi ...

Post by **garyb** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:59 am

try setting logic's priority to "above normal". you can mess with the buffer settings on the audio driver options page. the errors after the crash are normal. when logic crashes, it doesn't release the asio driver, making it unavailable to logic until you restart the computer. how is midi getting to logic?

AlienHand · Post by **AlienHand** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:12 am

Hi garyb.

Yes I've tried to set logic to AboveNormal or High. Been doing that for years on my old system and it does help. But not on my new system in this case.

My keyboard er connectet to the scope Midi IN - Midi OUT goes to AMT8. I belive I have to change this to all midi goes through AMT8 - but I'm missing a midi cable. Have to buy one tomorrow

In the Scope project the Scope Midi source is connected to Sequencer Midi Dest - and the Sequencer Midi Source is connected to Scope Midi Dest (Scope is set to be board 1 and plusar board 2)

Best regards,
AlienHand

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:30 am

a Pulsar 1 (4DSPs) is NOT a Scope project, it is a so-called generation one board and has a different IO system and PCI interface.
I assume your 15 DSP board is generation 2 (you can choose a latency below 13ms at 44.1k)
There seem to be 'modern' chipsets that don't cooperate well with the old 4 DSP cards, according to what has been reported.

this is only a suspect - I'd remove the midi (and all IO) modules related to the Pulsar One from the project and check if this changes the situation (just save the project under a different name and throw out what belongs to the P1) - thus making the card basically a DSP extender only.

if it doesn't help, remove the Pulsar One board from the system (no need to modify the installation)
if the situation doesn't improve, the you can be (almost) certain that it's not a low level hardware problem, which is otherwise difficult to track.

cheers, Tom

AlienHand · Post by **AlienHand** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:40 am

astroman wrote:a Pulsar 1 (4DSPs) is NOT a Scope project...
There seem to be 'modern' chipsets that don't cooperate well with the old 4 DSP cards, according to what has been reported.

Well ... I'm not using pulsar 1 as mainboard. The scope board is my mainboard - hence the "Scope project". I was thinking of removing it to test the system yet again... I gues this would be my next step. If Pulsar 1 is making the problems I gues I don't need it any more. But then I have a new paper weight

Thanks for the tip....

AlienHand · Post by **AlienHand** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:22 pm

Hi again.

Removing the Pulsar was not a good idea. For some reason I can't run the scope4 software with my scope board alone. So... I have to put my Pulsar 1 back in .... so much for a new paper weight...

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:59 pm

oops - sorry I forgot about this - you may have had the Pulsar One earlier and some stuff (or even the basic SFP software) registered to it's hardware...
did you try to avoid it's hardware IOs and remove the respective software modules ?
otherwise increase latency to 13ms - Valis recently mentioned that midi data is processed on the CPU, so it may access the PCI bus

cheers, Tom

kyunghwee · Post by **kyunghwee** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:10 pm

If your 15-DSP board is not able to run Scope alone, I'd say there's your culprit, right there! One thing you may want to check, of course, is the software registration. If your Scope software is not registered to your 15 DSP board, I believe it will prompt you to enter a valid registration key. I would think though...your 15-DSP board should've shipped with Scope version 4 at least, if not 4.5...depending on when you got the board.
I would try to take out the 15-DSP board and try running the system with your gen. 1 Pulsar board alone...see if that makes any difference. And yes, gen. 1 boards have higher latency so you may have to adjust that in Scope.

I've had similar settings as you...PowerPulsar (15 DSP), Pulsar Plus (4 DSP), & Pulsar SRB (4 DSP) in my system. I've ran my system with various configurations as far as Pulsar cards go and you should be able to run Scope with any of them alone.

It sounds like you've got a much more powerful system than I do. I have just the normal Windows installation even with dreaded HT enabled and for the most part it runs just fine.

Hopefully, it is not your hardware problem.

I don't think equipment repair is CreamWare's first priority. My PowerPulsar board's been sent for repair to CreamWare at the beginning of Jan. and I'm still waiting.

Good luck!

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:27 pm

Does the keyboard/synth that you have attached to the Scope midi in generate Active Sensing messages? YOu can check this with the MIDI Monitor inside scope (look at the checkboxes at the bottom). Active sensing causes a lot of issues with Scope hardware under Xp for some reason, including BSOD's.

Look in C:\Scope\App\IOEnabler (or the equivalent dir for your installation) and run IO Enabler.exe. Enable ASIO drivers should be checked, as well as Enable Wave Drivers. You'll see a setting at the bottom 'Logic Audio & Wave Optimization', check it & Save.

If this doesn't fix WAV driver issues, go into your Control panels, "Sounds and Audio Devices", then once the properties panel opens go to the Hardware tab and find either card, double click or select & choose properties below. Once the card's properties panel appears, go to 'Settings' and change the 'Output Preload' setting to be towards the middle, or towards big if it is already there. Ignore 'preferred bit depth' it is meaningless on XP/Win2k. Note that you can hand-set the number of wav drivers and midi ports here, and you might want to uncheck 'reset board if idle' so that the card doesn't shut itself off after a few minutes away from the PC, this can cause crashes after long idle times.

Beyond that post your results and other symptoms we'll see what we can do, good luck!

AlienHand · Post by **AlienHand** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:41 pm

First of I would like to thank astroman, kyounghwee and valis for the lates input and everyone else for trying to help me.

To answer astroman and kyoundhwee - I think my scope software is regged for my pulsar1 board. Don't know if it is possible to reg the software to my scope board. I see that I can't log into "myPage" (I think that was the link) on creamware's homepage - the link is missing.
Also, my scope board is second hand - I got only the board - nothing else. But I did reg my board at Creamware - otherwise I couldn't use it.

astroman: the latency is set to 13ms (44.1 Khz). What did you mean by "avoid it's hardware IOs"?

kyounghwee: I'll try to take out the 15-DSP and see if Pulsar1 runs stable without the scope board.

valis: I did what you said about the IO Enabler - sorry to say it didn't help. Also, I couldn't "ignore" the 'preferred bit depth' in the Sounds and Audio Device Settings. 'reset board if idle' is of cause always UNCHECKED

I connected the following in my routing window; [ Scope MIDI A Source ] <-> [ MIDI Monitor ] - at first nothing happend in the MIDI Monitor window. Then I turned on my keyboard and the Active Sensing starts running. Pressing the keyboard shows witch note I'm pressing.... (what now?)

So I tried this ... With the keyboard off and no midi source or dest in the routing window (only ASIO2 24 bit Source and a mixer), I loaded up logic and startet testing. After a short while it frooze and disapeared like before.

So I can do 2 things i guess... Test with only the Pulsar board - or the Scope board IF I can get the software regged for it ...

Any other ideas?

Thanks for all the input - without you guys I would be lost permanently..

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:09 pm

AlienHand wrote:...astroman: the latency is set to 13ms (44.1 Khz). What did you mean by "avoid it's hardware IOs"?...

I meant don't connect anything external to it and remove the the respective 'software modules' (like Pulsar Midi In, or Pulsar Analog In) from the project - just to be sure it doesn't do any Input/Output on the board.

on the other hand that may not be necessary...

can you get below 13ms latency at all ?
that would mean the 15 DSP card is a generation one type, too.
as mentioned AndreD had some difficulties with generation one boards on modern chipsets, though the one you use was not mentioned (it wasn't yet released...)
anyway, this is just a possibility - a guess

you could as well be able to literally kill the system by a midi-loop (via routing) in software only, if Logic is set to midi-through (afaik) - or a leaking midi buffer etc

cheers, Tom

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:43 pm

out of curiosity, how was the example recorded? to an external recorder? or via wave source to another app? or routed back into logic?

SonicTransportSystem · Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:11 pm

Hi

I think you have big problems with your Scope System cause you are using a dual core processor. It seems that CW soundcards dont have a Firmware prepared for dual core processors

A friend of mine had a lot of problems like crashing computer when start Scope and he had a pentium dual core. When he changed to an AMD ( not dual) the problems stop and everything is working perfect

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:29 pm

if you look around you will see that scope will work fine ona dualcore cpu's.

AlienHand · Post by **AlienHand** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:05 pm

astroman: Yes, I can get under 13ms latency - or 3 up

I'll try without any external devices (AMT8, Adat etc.) and MIDI software modules and see what happens (and/or try the midi-loop)- I'll get back to you one his one... Thanks!

piddi: The sample was recorded with audition (I got the same result with windows sound recorder) - wave source to another app. If I use Vdat in scope I get a clean recording - then you have to merge the left and right track in audition and it's just a waste of time if I want to make 50 waves for song. But I also get a few scatter at playback i logic in generel - so I may have to try 5-10 times before I get something usefull without scatter. Also a waste of time

Thanks for asking....

SonicTransportSystem: as pippi said

.. others uses duel cpu and have no problems. So I guess I should too. I wonder if I should set up scope and logic to only use one cpu ??

Back to testing...

Thanks again for input!

Post by **garyb** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:14 pm

you should set audition's or the windows recorder's priority to "above normal" as well. set scope to "low".

i'm assuming you have logic, audition and scope open and that you're recoding to audition from logic in realtime.

SonicTransportSystem · Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:21 am

That thing of the dual core processors just happened with a friend of mine, he have the Scoope Home ( Luna II)....

When we have problems we must think about everything that can make them....

Best Regards

AlienHand · Post by **AlienHand** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:35 am

garyb: Thanks - I'll try that right away. Should I set scope to "low" in generel or just at recording?

SonicTransportSystem: We can hope for new scope drivers who supports duel cpu's... if it will help at all ..

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:59 am

"piddi: The sample was recorded with audition (I got the same result with windows sound recorder) - wave source to another app. If I use Vdat in scope I get a clean recording - then you have to merge the left and right track in audition and it's just a waste of time if I want to make 50 waves for song. But I also get a few scatter at playback i logic in generel - so I may have to try 5-10 times before I get something usefull without scatter. Also a waste of time Thanks for asking.... "

From what i can hear from your sample its not the sequencer itself that is to blame. If it was the sequencer, the amount of trouble you are experiencing would cause the midi to stutter as well (based on experience, i might be wrong though), but your sample plays along with nice timing.

From what i can hear from your sample its not the sequencer itself that is to blame. If it was the sequencer, the amount of trouble you are experiencing would cause the midi to stutter as well (based on experience, i might be wrong though).

which brings me to my next question: Are you applying any effects to the track in audition? like reverb?

edit: i just read your reply once more, and i just want to clarify something. do you export your wavs to audition and sequence them there? then add effects etc in Audition?

If so, when you have your wavs, Close logic, switch from Wave to Asio driver in audition before trying to play your compositions.

your sentence that if you use VDAT everything is fine should indicate that the problem most certainly is on the Audition side of things. as said, try a)raising the latency for the wave drivers to the higest setting (in Audition, not in the scope enviroments ULLI settings), and b) try using ASIO drivers in Audition when "composing".

valis · Post by **valis** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:16 am

Sounds likely that it's the wav drivers. The easiest thing to do is to actually record back into your main sequencer (Logic) via ASIO, this is what most people do.

Otherwise check my post above for the location of the 'Output preload' slider and adjust it, then check the buffer settings in Audition and increase them as well.