I want a variable action keyboard

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:47 am

Everybody talks business here in NYC.. here's mine:
A keyboard MIDI controller that has user configurable key weight, pitch (depth), and angle. I'm not too sure how you'd do any of this, but all I know is that I've never seen someting like this, and I sure as heck want one right now.

I looked at the schematics for the newer rhodes mark II, and the action is mechanically very simple. (which I think is the point) I wouldn't see how you couldn't modify it to use adjustable contact points to change the characteristics..

Anyway, just me blabbering. But like all businesses, I think there's such a strong shift towards making everything virtual and in-tactile, there's a huge vacuum in creating physical products that focus primarily on haptic response.

My punch line:
Who cares if you have a 3 terabyte sound library if your keys don't feel right?

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:00 am

oh yeah, throw in another idea.. on top of MIDI. how about wifi + drivers?

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:16 am

I've been playing my vintage keyboard samples alot since the release of all of Shroomz's Tube Filters, Pres, and Mixers. They sound so real now, and even needed to re-do my Oberheims velocity tables to make new Clavinet, Wurlitzer, and Rhodes templates.
If you are looking for the most accurate controller that has been made to date, check it out, as I believe that all of the custom velocity settings should be implemented in future controllers. I tend to punch the wurlitzer template harder, as it was a dynamic instrument, but to get it to bark a little louder, you had to dig in hard. But that was part of the sound, the action was different on all keyboards back in the day.
My Oberheim Matrix 12 for instance cost me several thousand USD back then, but the sound was awesome. However it still is the worst keyboard action I ever encountered. Funny 'eh?

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:02 pm

If you are looking for the most accurate controller that has been made to date, check it out

so which keyboard are you suggesting for me to check out? the oberheim?

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:39 pm

Ken, that's an insane thing you're asking for... not denying it would be cool

However I just can't see something so complex being designed for such a small potential market. Like you I've been looking for a good keyboard but there really isn't much good stuff out there, I think people look at controllers these days as 'disposable' items - use/abuse to death, throw out and buy new disposable keyboard. It seems like manufacturers just assume that anyone who has an interest in playing keys will have a Motif or Fantom or Triton? It's a shame, because I don't want any of those cheesy digital synths

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:50 pm

Dunno, I don't think it's all that hard to build one, and the parts involved don't seem too specialized either.. maybe just durable. I just need to be able to cut things precisely, which will require some help to do. I'm currently looking for prototype people who can help. (my family is in heavy industry in Taiwan) I think with laser cutters and CAD, prototyping has become much easier than what it was before. Of course, I'm speaking with zero experience.. lol.

I think I'll try to build a prototype with just 1 key, and see how it pans out.. Granted, it may take a while to get even that done. The MIDI electronics seem to be less of a challenge as there's only so much you could do with a MIDI keyboard. Maybe split control, and minimal controls.. but I'm more focused on the tactile part. Speaking of MIDI though, has anyone seen any tutorials for making keyboard controllers? I see stuff for knobs and faders all the time, but none for keyboards yet.

At the very least, it'll be a fun project. I think it's been too much computers and internet for me the past few months. hehe. Time to work with hands and physical objects.

btw, I don't mean a full piano action guys, just something close to the rhodes. Cool thing is, as soon as I make contact with something (sensor, etc), I don't have to worry about muting.

Post by **hubird** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:04 pm

wow...

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:25 pm

Find a used MC3000, if you are lucky. The keys are large and made of wood, sorry no Ivory. But there are programmable action templates, and it comes w/ 48 velocity curves of it's own !! They just don't make them like they use to. I still have a KX88 if you are interested. Micheal McDonald swears by them still. They are known for their road worthy incredible action, but they suck w/ zones and splits, etc. The Oberheim is the last of a dying breed. They are extremely rare to find, but high dollar studios that have the budget, use these great behemoths still. Good Luck.
Remember this though, w/o a case it weighs 90 lbs. When you put it in it's coffin, it's that big, it is a major pain in the arse to carry. But there are no equals period.
Darkrezin is correct also. Motif, Karma, Triton, etc. Dairy products ooze from their 1/4' outputs. They are so insulting to play. Factory Brass, B3, and 500 other worthless presets, Oh boy,.. I always wanted to sound exactly like the other dozen guys that played this stage in the last month. Fuck that shit !!
As soon as I play the low notes from SE-1x combined w/ ProOne vrs, 2.02, then the Solaris / ProWave preset on the higher zone, every cocktail waitress and bartender look up and nod. So if they can notice that difference, every one can. We live in a world of shit, it's up to us to climb out and wipe it off, or swim w/ the turds.

I got into trouble @ the last gig when I announced that everyone should tip your bartenders, and wait-tail cocktresses, a simple Fruedian slip. NOT !!!

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:11 am

afaik Kawai stage pianos have a more 'direct' feeling response, because they use the actual 'hammer-impact' for velocity information - not the usual 'speed-difference' between 2 switches method.
They've become quite affordable, I've played an ES4 a shop once and it felt mechanically very good. There are versions with even better keyboards, up to real wood (weight) monsters as in Jimmy's Oberheim.
but of course I'd never want to distract you from a DIY project

cheers, Tom

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:28 am

well, in terms of piano action, I use the yamaha p250 which I really like the feel of, although it may not be the best out there. I was talking primarily about rhodes and wurlitzer style action, which is much simpler than a piano action because of the lack of a wippen assembly. Just not sure how to convert the impact info to velocity.

the hard part is, I'd like to take existing products apart to see how they're doing it, but who's got the money to throw away? So for now, it's just research and looking for people to help me build this thing.

Actually, while we're on the topic, what do you think would be the ideal way to measure velocity? I can think of several ways:
1. Actually hit something, and measure tha magnitude of impact.. which is probably too expensive to do. I wonder if there's a sensor for this kind of stuff..
2. Actually hit something, and use the impact as a signal to grab rotational velocity from the rotating hammer

uhmm.. hmm, maybe that's all I can think of at the moment. 1 obviously seems like the logical choice.

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:43 am

I know what you mean about the Rhodes action. The actual bounce back from striking the tines is the resistance you seek. That instrument was so dynamic. Perfect bell like tones w/ light touch, awesome overdrive from tines when struck more forcefully. A great variation of dynamics. The Oberheim can achieve those dynamics of sound, but the feel is totally different.

I would be interested in any results you come up with.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:52 pm

peavey used to make an 88key controller with variable action...........it was huge and heavy....

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:05 pm

Brotha's Of Da Z,
It was awesome, and was updated via 3.5" FDD's.

The action was very good. But the more travel it endured, the mushier the action became. I was called to sub for Tim McGraw @ Ceasers back in '98 where they had a " free " sponsored DPM-C8 from Peavey. I played a Kurzweil rack module, and every song was the sane key, same chord progression, blah, blah, blah. And the same weak Kurzweil Acoustic piano patch.
Even back then I knew my days as a suck ass sub / sideman were drawing near. I have such a hard time even listening to that JoeBob Baloney, I can't imagine ever having to play that shit again.

But if it was kept in a studio it would be a worthy contender, and you could get one on ebay probably for next to nothing.

Happy Hunting,

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:45 am

searching for mc3000, I didn't find an oberheim but I did find one of these. lol
http://cgi.ebay.com/Janome-MC3000-Memor ... dZViewItem

state of the art mechanics, none the less. hehe.

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:35 am

What about just taping different sized weights to the tops of your fingernails?

This would give you instant variable-action keyboard.

FTW!

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:42 am

Kensuguro,
I have customised all of my M Audio KS 88's, and ES 88 also w/ a strip of felt. i.e. pool table bumper thickness ( 3/16" ). It takes away the fake bounce back speed a little, making it appear to have harder resistance. Try experimenting w/ different thicknesses, on different controllers. I had to do this to the M Audios just to make 'em feel like older hardware CP 88 from the Yamaha days.

Astro has good touch in his hands, as I have played the Kawaii Digital Pianos @ the mall the other day. I saw this awesome babe so I thought I'd show off a little, she left the store w/ a radical lookin' rapper, so I felt like the chump in the Old Spice after shave commercial, but's it's all good.

The action was very good, I believe it was the MP-5, I think I am confused w/ my Heckler and Koch fully auto close quarters anti intruder weapon. Hell I can't keep track anymore with all the guns and keyboards I got.

Peace Through Superior Firepower,

Michu · Post by **Michu** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:11 am

Counterparts wrote:What about just taping different sized weights to the tops of your fingernails?

This would give you instant variable-action keyboard.

FTW!

unfortunately that would only deal with variable action weight, then you have action depth and amount of springing back (they key factor on emulating rhodes i think). Ken, i think making a single key prototype shouldn't be a problem, but then you'd have to devise a way of adjusting all keys across the keyboard at once, as adjusting them one by one by hand would be a job comparable to tuning a piano

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:27 am

Yeah, I know...t'was just a jest

I have actually considered the mechanical complications involved in being able to adjust the physical parameters of the keys according to Ken's original post. The mind boggles! I think you'd be looking at the most expensive keyboard controller ever made...

Adjusting the stroke and angle of the keys would be pretty straightforward to achieve for all keys, but the weight adjustment would be very tricky, especially with a mechanical-only solution.

One approach would be to have the keys' weight controlled by magnetic resistance; each key would carry a small electromagnet which would encounter resistance as it would pass through the field of another electromagnet when the key is stroked. The amount of current flowing through them would determine the weight of the keys. The level of megnetic resistance could be measured by appropriate circuitry, feeding back to the system to ensure an equal weight for all keys.

...and then I woke up from the dream...

Michu · Post by **Michu** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:23 am

it wouldn't be necessarily more complicated than an actual piano mechanism.
you'd need something like a hammer mechanism with a weight on a lever, where you could adjust position of a weight so the action would be adjusted by priciple of lever, the further the weight the heavier the action.
then you'd need something like an anvil or a stop that could adjust the depth of the stroke and if it had some spring properties it could emulate the spring back of rhodes type action.
motorizing of all that is another thing

Michu · Post by **Michu** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:40 am

regarding electromagnets, the problem is that perceived 'weight' of keys is about inertia not resistance